Who is happy the engine will be Naturally Aspirated?

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by fatoni

yeah but that is what the conversation turned into. his initial complaint was "turbo lag surprise at corners." i just dont think that has to be the systems behaviors. im not saying i want fi but im not going to say i "hate" it. on a personal note i wish it would come na but play nice with fi. not sure how i feel about the compression ratio but on the other hand i will never turbo one if i get it

It's not really a function of turbo lag as much as it's a function of the non-linear powerband. A lot of drivers complain about how much such sudden power delivery upsets the balance of a car mid-corner. You have to change how you drive around it, certainly.

[3MI Racing]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

It's not really a function of turbo lag as much as it's a function of the non-linear powerband. A lot of drivers complain about how much such sudden power delivery upsets the balance of a car mid-corner. You have to change how you drive around it, certainly.

I think transient response of the turbo system (intake volume being part of this)is a lot of trouble that drivers have, assuming they know how to drive and are in the powerband. If they're in the powerband it isn't lag because it isn't an RPM outside of the turbos spool.

The inability to adjust to transient response is much like a marksman not being able to adjust to a moving target when shooting.

Violent onset of boost can also be attributed to tuning technique/methodolgy or a bad match of gearing to torque curve.

With that said, I'm still anxious to get an NA build done. As I stated earlier under my Homemade WRX account, it's like going back to basics
But once that's out of the way, I can start making some more serious power.

[OrbitalEllipses]

You want transient response? Downsize the turbo and/or go twin-scroll. There is no magic snail, physics doesn't work that way.

[3MI Racing]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

You want transient response? Downsize the turbo and/or go twin-scroll. There is no magic snail, physics doesn't work that way.

I never said there was a 'magic snail' and downsizing the turbo doesn't change just change transient response, it changes the powerband/torque curve (reduces lag).

...and I don't think I'll be taking my physics from you because they CAN work that way. If you alter cam phasing, fueling, igntion timing or exhaust temps; you can alter the transient response. Likewise the mass of the compressor and turbine wheel effects transient resonse while still on the same size turbo.

Also you'll find that twinscroll has diminshing returns with the higher the RPM. The strength of the exhaust pulses start to diminish and the signal becomes flattened. Even the people who did the originial development in the diesel world start to find this to be true...in the 3000 RPM range. If you don't believe me, call and engineer at Honeywell, Holset or Borg Warner, if you know one. If you need a few numbers I can give them to you.


/threadjack...back to NA talk.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Not really talking at you Micah, more at the masses.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by pcasso87

Do you have anything better to do than argue about everything on a forum? Seriously man nothing is sadder than seeing a person who thinks he knows everything on a damn internet forum and just arguing against anything he thinks is wrong....... Im seriously starting to think if i say i like coffee you will argue about why tea is better!!

well the personal attacks are nice. im not even arguing, im just saying that your supports to your claim dont really support your claim. saying you dont want forced induction because of turbo lag is like saying you dont like sex because of aids. i dont think i know everything but i dont know why you think arguing against things i think are wrong is sad.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by fatoni

saying you dont want forced induction because of turbo lag is like saying you dont like sex because of aids.

Come on now, that's hardly a fair analogy.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by old greg

Come on now, that's hardly a fair analogy.

maybe not but not all forced induction suffers from turbo lag just like all sexual partners have hiv. im aware there are many downsides of FI. turbo lag surprising you out of a corner shouldnt be happening in a properly tuned car and linear power isnt unique or inherent to n/a. were all allowed to have our own opinions. our opinions dont even have to be backed by facts but to sit here and give reasons that dont apply to the spectrum of FI is just silly reasoning

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by fatoni

you could say thats more a gearing problem than an induction problem. a properly sized turbo is going to have 0 lag out of a corner since you shouldnt be shifting mid corner. also there are superchargers...they dont suffer from turbo lag

But superchargers do come with parasitic loss, added weight, pulleys wear down, or you have to address increased heat...all extra issues do deal with....

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

But superchargers do come with parasitic loss, added weight, pulleys wear down, or you have to address increased heat...all extra issues do deal with....

yeah those are better reasons except maybe for weight. i think with power equal FI can take that as an advantage...maybe. its looking like im a little bit of a forced induction fanboy right now. im not, im just saying the reasons listed in that little debate werent really reasons to not want FI

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

yeah those are better reasons except maybe for weight. i think with power equal FI can take that as an advantage...maybe. its looking like im a little bit of a forced induction fanboy right now. im not, im just saying the reasons listed in that little debate werent really reasons to not want FI

I think there was a symptom/problem misunderstanding. Mid corner lag was the symptom. Poorly sized turbo was the problem.

I still believe there will always be the transient response issue (however slight) with turbos, but they should never upset a car mid-corner.

[Lonewolf]

I probably shouldn't say this since I haven't even driven the car, but sometimes I wish the motor was 2.2 NA with more aggressive tuning/cams and about 230 hp...I think it would have been perfect at that point (and also 5G's more).

[Subie]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

I probably shouldn't say this since I haven't even driven the car, but sometimes I wish the motor was 2.2 NA with more aggressive tuning/cams and about 230 hp...I think it would have been perfect at that point (and also 5G's more).

I was with you until the "5G's" bit. The price is where it needs to be in order to be competitive. 230 HP would not be enough for $5k more.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Subie

I was with you until the "5G's" bit. The price is where it needs to be in order to be competitive. 230 HP would not be enough for $5k more.

I don't want it to be 5G's more, I am just saying that with that type of powerplant, it probably would be starting to creep up to that range.

As it is now, the FRS is at the upper point of my spending budget...I am not making payments unless I can get something like 0.9% APR, so 30K would probably make me reconsider buying the car.

* I have a feeling that the Sti version of the BRZ will be at least 5 thousand more, with around 230-245 hp (if they decide not to turbocharge it). Granted, it would be coming with better brakes, tires, and suspension in addition to the power bump.

If the STI Brz is turbocharged, we could be looking at much more than 30-45 extra hp...but who knows until it is actually released.