2016 Honda Civic Thread (10th gen)

[gymratter]

^ :p

[krayzie]

No more like this:

[totopo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Just speculating but I think MSRP for any S2000 successor would be $40-45k to bump the CTR's 2.0T to 340 hp and put it into a bespoke RWD chassis. That's cheaper than a base 718 Boxster ($57k) but almost as much horsepower as a 718 Boxster S ($68k). It would also put these cars in similar market positions as they were in 2000 by inflation-adjusted MSRP.

I think the problem with the original S2000 was nobody was willing to pay $32k for 240 torqueless hp back in 2000. The torque issue is solved by using a turbo in the new S2000, but are people willing to pay $40-45k for 340 hp today? Not sure...

The problem is tq needs heavier everything. all the >260tq cars these days, even expensive bepsoke chassis (z4) are >3000, probably even all >3200lbs these days.

What you want for light car is low torque high hp high revving engine. But no one, not even honda, has been able to replicate the f20c with modern exhaust and efficiency requirements. plus with all the inflated hp numbers and sticky tires these days would there even be a market for a new 240hp 160tq 2800lb car?

The 300hp 3200lb class of cars is super stiff competition, especially if you think it's going to be 40-45k class. The v8 domestics, 370z, z4, porsche cayman come into play.

Maybe they would have a niche if they went for a cheap cayman. Save some weight with a MR layout and aim for a 300hp 3000lb car.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by totopo

The problem is tq needs heavier everything. all the >260tq cars these days, even expensive bepsoke chassis (z4) are >3000, probably even all >3200lbs these days.

What you want for light car is low torque high hp high revving engine. But no one, not even honda, has been able to replicate the f20c with modern exhaust and efficiency requirements. plus with all the inflated hp numbers and sticky tires these days would there even be a market for a new 240hp 160tq 2800lb car?

The 300hp 3200lb class of cars is super stiff competition, especially if you think it's going to be 40-45k class. The v8 domestics, 370z, z4, porsche cayman come into play.

Maybe they would have a niche if they went for a cheap cayman. Save some weight with a MR layout and aim for a 300hp 3000lb car.

Yeah I don't think 300 hp, 3000 lbs would cut it. If that's all Honda could do, I think they're wise to not to try.

But something like 340 hp / 300 lbs-ft, 2900 lbs (basically 718 Boxster S fighter) at $40-45k? I think there might be a market for that. That's significantly lighter than the V8 domestics, lighter and more torque than the 370z, much cheaper than a Boxster S, and lighter/cheaper than the Z4. Like I said, similar market position to the original S2000 but this time with real torque to help American buyers look past the V8 domestics. I don't think it'd be a volume seller, but there might be enough interest for it to be financially viable... especially if they repurpose the CTR engine to lower development costs.

If Mazda found ways to cut weight and keep the ND within 150 lbs of the NA while bumping displacement to 2.0L for under $30k, I think Honda could find a way to keep the weight of a new S2000 under 3000 lbs while adding a turbo for $45k. Hell they could even under-brake the car like the original and most buyers would probably forgive them.

[vh_supra26]

Here's what the small middle exhaust pipe on the Civic Type R actually does.

The 2017 Honda Civic Type R is here, and it's a knockout. The most hardcore Civic ever packs 306 turbocharged horses and claims to be the fastest front-drive car to ever lap the Nurburgring.

But what's up with that triple-tip exhaust? Some folks seem to think it's just an unnecessary styling feature, but it's much more than that—it's a precisely engineered, fully functional addition that's crucial to the Type R's aural experience. Road & Track spoke with Rob Keough, senior product planner for the 10th-generation Civic, to find out why a four-cylinder car is breathing through three tailpipes of two different diameters.

"Traditionally with these big flow exhaust systems, when you get up into highway speeds, you can get a lot of droning, booming, buzzing—not very comfortable for high speed cruising," Keough told R&T. Honda wanted to offer a sporty, engaging sound in aggressive driving, without punishing drivers on long commutes or highway trips. And the automaker wanted to do so without resorting to stereo-enhanced engine sounds or complex (and expensive) multi-mode muffler systems.

The solution is to split the single exhaust into three pipes just behind the rear axle. The two outer pipes include large straight-flow mufflers. The center, smaller diameter pipe is a resonator, shaped and sized to perform a particular aural trick.

At low speed—say, as you're full-throttle accelerating from a dead stop—some of the exhaust flows through the center resonator, generating a louder, more aggressive growl. "You'll hear it both outside and inside the car," Keough said. As you settle in to high speed cruising, the exhaust flowing through the center outlet hits a resonant frequency. The resonator gets stuffed with air, stalling the airflow; the resulting backpressure diverts the exhaust to flow exclusively through the larger outboard mufflers, reducing the cabin noise at highway speeds.

"It basically diminishes the resonator effect at that point, attenuating the sound inside the car," Keough said. "You still get your big flow through the outboard pipes, but you get a more refined in-cabin experience at high-speed cruising. " Under certain conditions, the center resonator can actually begin sucking air in, Keough said, creating a venturi effect flowing out through the outboard pipes.

"When it’s not flowing through the center resonator, it’s not generating that extra resonance. So it’s not like you have zero exhaust sound, but you’re not generating this extra sporty sound that comes from the resonator," Keough told R&T. Additional insulation and aerodynamic tweaks to the Civic Type R help reduce in-cabin noise on the highway even further.

While the exhaust system precisely manipulates sound and flow based on RPM and speed, there are zero moving parts and no electronics involved. That stays in line with the Type R's identity as a raw, honest machine, not the type of vehicle where you'd expect to find faked exhaust notes coming through the stereo. It also helps keep the one-trim-level-only Civic Type R's sticker price in the $34,000 range. "We didn’t build in servos or flap valves," Keough said. "This is a very simply designed system where you’re getting the effect without additional moving parts. It's a very durable, low cost and effective solution."

Of course, the Civic Type R is the kind of car that aftermarket tuners love to fiddle with—especially now that it's coming to the US market for the very first time. I asked Keough if he'll be frustrated to see owners cutting out this painstakingly-engineered three-tip system and replacing it with a big, boomy exhaust.

"We kind of anticipate that," he said. "We wanted to deliver a high quality, sporty, but refined experience for this customer, but we already know some kids are gonna want more noise. We’re not going to be particularly offended."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...ree-tailpipes/

[gymratter]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-EETpgO3k4[/ame]

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yeah I don't think 300 hp, 3000 lbs would cut it. If that's all Honda could do, I think they're wise to not to try.

But something like 340 hp / 300 lbs-ft, 2900 lbs (basically 718 Boxster S fighter) at $40-45k? I think there might be a market for that. That's significantly lighter than the V8 domestics, lighter and more torque than the 370z, much cheaper than a Boxster S, and lighter/cheaper than the Z4. Like I said, similar market position to the original S2000 but this time with real torque to help American buyers look past the V8 domestics. I don't think it'd be a volume seller, but there might be enough interest for it to be financially viable... especially if they repurpose the CTR engine to lower development costs.

If Mazda found ways to cut weight and keep the ND within 150 lbs of the NA while bumping displacement to 2.0L for under $30k, I think Honda could find a way to keep the weight of a new S2000 under 3000 lbs while adding a turbo for $45k. Hell they could even under-brake the car like the original and most buyers would probably forgive them.

It's important to remember, that 9/10 times, whenever Honda competes in some sort of sports car / performance car market, they almost always show up underpowered. Or debut with competitive power but then fall behind almost immediately. And yet their cars still sell, for a few good reasons.

1) bulletproof reliability
2) amazing transmissions
3) great handling

So I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities for an S2000 successor to be competitive and sell well were it to cost around $40,000 and have a power to weight ratio in the 10:1 range.

There are some people that are "numbers" people, or straight up "performance car" people that will consider all cars with similar power and price. But there's another class of drivers/buyers, that prefer purpose built sports cars. People that value lightweight, suspension design and driver feedback over outright power and/or speed.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

But there's another class of drivers/buyers.....People that value lightweight, suspension design and driver feedback over outright power and/or speed.

What!!!!!!, there are others....I thought I was the only one. I am not alone in the universe.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

There are some people that are "numbers" people, or straight up "performance car" people that will consider all cars with similar power and price. But there's another class of drivers/buyers, that prefer purpose built sports cars. People that value lightweight, suspension design and driver feedback over outright power and/or speed.

Are those the same 10 people that bought the original S2000? That's essentially the same formula as the original S2000 and NSX, and neither of those cars did well in the US from a sales volume perspective.

If Honda wants to actually capture market share with the next S2000, they need to avoid the same philosophy they had with the original car. (And based on their philosophy with this new CTR - i.e., FWD Nurburging lap record, turbocharged engine, 3100+ lbs, mcpherson struts, etc., I think they've decided to fully embrace the performance numbers and value aspects this time around.)

Now if you're just talking about making a handful of petrolheads happy (i.e., driver's car > performance car), then I'm with you. You're on a BRZ/FR-S site, you're preaching to the choir here lol.

[WolfpackS2k]

LOL, while I agree that's not a "huge" demographic, the S2000 actually sold well for being a hardcore focused sports car for much of it's production run. It sold just shy of 10,000 units (per year) in the 3rd and 4th years of its production, and maintained well over 5,000 units (per year) for it's first 7 years of production. Not too bad for an impractical car with limited updates throughout it's life cycle.

I think a business case could be made for an S2000 successor utilizing the CTR's engine (maybe with some mild modifications to make it more exotic) with a price of $40-45,000 if sales stayed above 5,000/year. Honda needs a new halo model.

[serialk11r]

I somehow missed the K20C1 release from 2 years ago...I never bothered reading after seeing "turbo". Looks like they did a great job on the new Type R with a lightened crankshaft in particular, I like that.

They definitely are being conservative on that engine to improve low-end torque, with a higher rev limit and a different turbo it should be capable of 400hp. 295ft-lb is a lot of torque for a 2L engine, so its rods can probably take a heavy beating from some 9000rpm operation

I would personally prefer if they didn't bother trying to make a new sports car faster in a straight line. I think 180hp/ton is good enough, that would be right where the 2.9L 987 Boxster was. If a tuned L15B7 is the way to get there then I'm okay with that (I would prefer a tuned K20C2 for its lighter weight and better instantaneous torque due to the bigger displacement, but NA engines are pretty much dead). Of course if they make a 350hp 2500lb car for a low price I probably wouldn't say no lol. Any of the Honda engines are more powerful than the competition from Toyota and probably more reliable, so I don't really care what engine they put in, as long as the rest of the car is good.

But really, a K20C2 weighs something like 220lbs wet vs. 300lbs for an L15B7 and probably ~330 for a K20C1 or C3, the transmission probably weighs less, and you'd be able to save some ducting space for a conveniently located oil cooler. A slightly modified K20C1 hitting 400hp is certainly a fantastic amount of power, but I want to say it's kind of excessive for a lightweight 2 seater that you take to the track. If it's below 3000lbs, your straightline speed is in Cayman GT4 territory. I'd much rather see a ~200hp tuned K20C2 in a Miata weight car.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

LOL, while I agree that's not a "huge" demographic, the S2000 actually sold well for being a hardcore focused sports car for much of it's production run. It sold just shy of 10,000 units (per year) in the 3rd and 4th years of its production, and maintained well over 5,000 units (per year) for it's first 7 years of production. Not too bad for an impractical car with limited updates throughout it's life cycle.

I think a business case could be made for an S2000 successor utilizing the CTR's engine (maybe with some mild modifications to make it more exotic) with a price of $40-45,000 if sales stayed above 5,000/year. Honda needs a new halo model.

I am in full agreement. The non-stop HP wars are fatiguing. 650 horsepower Camaros. 590 horsepower Jaguar Sedans. They're all cool from an engineering perspective, and probably make a bit of sense in Europe, but in North America? Nah, give me adequate power and a car that talks to me.

[vh_supra26]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia6xA70J2wU"]Promoted: 25 years of Honda Type R | Legends road trip with Civic, Integra and Accord - YouTube[/ame]

[krayzie]

I miss driving the Integra just from watching that video, that low driving position is spot on.