FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[Element Tuning]

Well the problem is that my racing is starting to take a front seat to "finding the cure" at a reasonable price. The bottom line is that we have a fix (requires engine though sorry)for most people but racing is the issue due to the high oil temps.

The front cover issue is that it's all sealer and you need to remove it all perfectly from both the engine block and heads plus the cover without getting it into your motor. It's not easy!!!! It's tedious, easy to get debris in the motor(since you have to scrape the top edges), and so hard to do perfectly with the engine in the car. You also have to let it drip for hours and hours so you can clean it prior to applying sealer.

It's doable but it really isn't fun or easy to do right. My issue is I can't wait to order one as I have to get my motor in ASAP.

[celek]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I have a new test engine to go into our race car that I will be testing some new parts along with maybe a tweak or two to try for more oil pressure. If people want me to test the Remax, send it to me and that will be cheaper than someone tearing their motor down only to be disappointed if it doesn't work. These mods or this pump will be my last attempt at this before going all in on the external pressure pump.

I tested the 14mm DIT pump and it really didn't do much. The design ramps up the oil pressure faster but it really dropped just like oem so the small volume improvement wasn't adequate.

The only things that worked are our engine build with internal mods, oil cooler, higher viscosity, and for 8k rpm+ the accumulator.

Easier said than afforded I am finding these pump gears at $475. I am trying to find more information online about them, assuming its a Japanese company.
Not being cheap just saying I need a solution, I have $6k tied up in parts on a short block and I don't even have rods for it yet

http://www.reimax.co.jp/

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

It's doable but it really isn't fun or easy to do right. My issue is I can't wait to order one as I have to get my motor in ASAP.

Ok, I've been losing sleep over what to do about this. How "S" is ASAP? Mine should arrive between Monday and Thursday next week, after which I can UPS or FedEx it overnight to you... Almost for free. (benefits of flying cargo)

I have a little time to wait because I'm waiting on turbo shipping, and then I'll be waiting a short while for ceramic coating some things... Oh, and a few little oil cooler brackets to be CNC'd.

Considering I have a little time to wait and you don't, I'd be willing to send you mine post-haste and free of charge if you'd be willing to order me another one or pay me for mine so I can order another. Mine only ran me $269.26 + 30 for shipping... This assumes that you can even wait until mid-to-late this week. If you can't, then I suppose this thought exercise was a waste of time.

I'm still planning on installing one myself and documenting my findings on an un-modified factory engine. Thanks for the info on the timing chain cover, but can you confirm whether the VVT sensors and cam valves have to come off before removal?

Oh, and thanks for not being a jerk about my sarcasm. I appreciate that.

Originally Posted by celek

Easier said than afforded I am finding these pump gears at $475. I am trying to find more information online about them, assuming its a Japanese company.
Not being cheap just saying I need a solution, I have $6k tied up in parts on a short block and I don't even have rods for it yet [/url]

I found it for $269.26. I can PM you a link. I don't know how the Mods are about me posting a link.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

I found it for $269.26. I can PM you a link. I don't know how the Mods are about me posting a link.

As long as it's not a link to your own site where you're making a profit when somebody buys something, you're fine.

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

As long as it's not a link to your own site where you're making a profit when somebody buys something, you're fine.

http://www.rhdjapan.com/reimax-oil-p...20-brz-86.html

There you go; that's where I bought mine. Thanks for the tip. Not in a hurry to get banned

[celek]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

http://www.rhdjapan.com/reimax-oil-p...20-brz-86.html

There you go; that's where I bought mine. Thanks for the tip. Not in a hurry to get banned

Excellent Thanks I want to see some feedback on this.
Also looking into some of the oil pan baffle options as well.. I am Lucky my rod bearings are from a RB26.

[Mikepage]

Mmm wait, are you saying the FA20 have the same problem like the old RB26 from the R32 concerning the crank collar?

[Spartarus]

No, just that the stock oil pump does not move enough oil for extended high RPM or high power use.

[celek]

Originally Posted by Mikepage

Mmm wait, are you saying the FA20 have the same problem like the old RB26 from the R32 concerning the crank collar?

I ordered the HKS stroker crank for my build it runs a larger WIDTH bearing than the FA20, Same size as SR20,RB26 but smaller BE OD for the rod for clearance at 51mm vs 53(Stock FA20)

[Spartarus]

Originally Posted by celek

I ordered the HKS stroker crank for my build it runs a larger WIDTH bearing than the FA20, Same size as SR20,RB26 but smaller BE OD for the rod for clearance at 51mm vs 53(Stock FA20)

I've found the rod journal diameter of the new stroker crank, but I've been looking everywhere for width comparison and found none. Do you know the width of the HKS rod journal?

There's also rumors that it's just a rebadged FB20 crank, as it shares the same rod journal and main journal diameter, and the same stroke, but again, I can't find a width for confirmation.

[fika84]

I'm curious to see how this all works out!! It'd be sweeeeet if we could get away with a different pump gearset instead of having to do massive engine work to rev higher safer.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

The capacity of each pocket on the stock pump is 1.1cc whereas the Reimax is 1.6cc. The Reimax pump has only 9 pockets (8 teeth) compared to the FA20's 12 (11 teeth). The Reimax unit displaces 1.2cc more oil per rev. That would work out to an extra 6 litres of oil per minute at 5000 RPM.

Thanks for the info. I hope the pump does the trick. One of the driving schools around here is considering buying a fleet of FRS's for their school car and were asking me about what should be done for track reliability. So the results here are interesting.

In all these quandaries regarding oiling, nobody has even attempted modifying the pressure relief valve. Can you explain why? All this talk about changing pumps and displacement when nobody has even addressed altering the point at which the relief valve bleeds system pressure. Adding a higher volume pump may increase system pressure but it would be doing so by overwhelming the pressure relief valve. That doesn't seem like a proper fix. Has any definitive testing been done that suggests that no amount of shimming (stiffening the spring changing the point at which it bleeds system pressure) of the PRV has any affect on system pressure at temp?

I just had a new engine for my race car built (previous engine had shimmed pump). This one barely made 60psi at 7k 220F.
Added a shim.
Made 65PSI at 7k 220F but at 240F+ it wouldn't make more than 60psi at any RPM.
Added a 2nd shim.
Makes 60PSI at 240F but I want another 10 PSI. I can still yet increase shim thickness but I am currently running a very thin 0w-30 which is only 10cSt @ 100C so before I go through the hassle again I'm going to try bumping to an oil with a ~14 cSt @ 100C (a thick 10w-30 or a 5w-40) should finally put me where I want to be when I eventually see 260F in the pan. If not, in goes another shim.

Most oil pumps produce enough volume that without a PRV they would greatly overwhelm the oiling system. The likelihood that the FA20 came with a pump that couldn't do this exists but that likelihood is pretty minimal and from all the reading I've done, nobody has proven it so.. yet.

Element suggested earlier in this thread that he is convinced it's the pump and admitted he didn't attempt at shimming the PRV. Considering how easy it is to shim the PRV and test vs. playing around with pumps I'm surprised nobody tried this first. Shimming PRV's is a super common way to manage oil pressures at high oil heat on race engines and I'm not saying it's the be-all-end-all but I am suggesting a lot of work is being done without this very obvious thing being tried and tested first.

[350matt]

How thick are these shims of yours? 1mm ?

Also what about a sump baffle plate? as is this engine like the EJ20 / EJ25 where the oil can easily run out of the sump and into the cylinders under hard cornering?

[celek]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

I've found the rod journal diameter of the new stroker crank, but I've been looking everywhere for width comparison and found none. Do you know the width of the HKS rod journal?

There's also rumors that it's just a rebadged FB20 crank, as it shares the same rod journal and main journal diameter, and the same stroke, but again, I can't find a width for confirmation.

Its not a rebadged FB25/FB20 thats for sure its a whole new forging with a different mix alloy(Secret according to HKS) As for FB20 in the Crosstrek its the same SOA part number as the FB25, they share the same crank at a smaller bore 84mm bore = 2.0ltr , 94mm bore = 2.5ltr. What scares me is people putting turbo kits on them with the weakness listed below but thats another story.

Attached you will see the specs of HKS Japan's site stating the differences. vs stock.
I had a FB25 crank and measured the rod journal space at 0.752" of an inch. You will see in the other attached pic ACL website specs for the RB/SR bearing.

There should be 1.5mm clearance left and right on the rod for oil to escape (Was told by Pauter its an industry standard).
Total width is 0.6732" of the RB bearing, + 3mm for oil to escape will give you the total HKS journal width around .7916". (Still waiting for the crank to arrive to confirm)

For the FB20/FB25 crank at 0.752", subtract 3mm for easy math on each side you are left with .6336" for bearing/rod space then subtract the crown on the edge of the bearing leaving you with a .5152" width of usable bearing surface area. on the pin or Crank Rod journal area.

I would rather have .5548 sq.in surface area width vs .5152 sq.in
Both at 48.. Pin diameter its 1.0475" vs .9727" in surface area. about a 10% increase for oiling.

On to FA20 I know the Pin diameter is larger at 50mm vs 48mm but as for width it is unknown to me. No manufacture has published that. My stock rods and crank are sitting 3 hours away so I can not measure them. Maybe @Element Tuning has a measurement of the stock bearing.

In order to have the rod clear the case halves the pin or journal was decreased to allow for a smaller Big End rod.
HKS like Cosworth like bolt in perfection with no modification and high longevity. Hence why the large capacity stroker kit from HKS is only offered in stock bore. No boring required, bolt it in and go.