Brake cooling

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I am not sure how effective those GT3 ducts would be, I think the best way is to combine the proper ducting (fog light delete and washer fluid is pretty much must and I tried at least 5-6 different route for brake ducts none of them worked with the KW setup except the one in my DIY ) and other stuff such as Titanium shims, thermal wrapping, Motul rBF 600 and good brake pads.. I didn't experience any fade issues at track.

I have a proper cooling duct system installed that directs air into the center of the rotors and through the vanes, which is supposed to be the most effective way.

Drivers side hose routing


Passenger's side






Passengers side


Drivers side




This setup has been okay for a while with titanium shims, Miller's racing brake fluid, and PMU Club Racer pads but my driving on track has gotten to the point where I'm glazing race pads and burning through them quickly. Not fading but definitely over heating, glazing, and wearing very quickly.

Instead of spending more money on stock size race pads I've ordered the AP Racing Sprint BBK to lose some weight and lower my long term operating costs since I'm at the track every month or so. The pads are much thicker and cheaper with a bigger variety of compounds available. Since the BBK is very thermally efficient in its own, I will be selling my Touge Factory cooling kit since the backing plates can no longer be used and I want there to be plenty of room up front for an intercooler and associated plumbing in the future. Not interested in creating any additional openings in front which add drag and complexity with hoses.


@glamcem I'd be very nervous driving with that hose setup on a 1-2" lowered car with 245 or wider tires. The hoses can get snagged on an object you drive over and wide enough tires could rub the hoses at full lock steering angles.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I am not sure how effective those GT3 ducts would be, I think the best way is to combine the proper ducting (fog light delete and washer fluid is pretty much must and I tried at least 5-6 different route for brake ducts none of them worked with the KW setup except the one in my DIY ) and other stuff such as Titanium shims, thermal wrapping, Motul rBF 600 and good brake pads.. I didn't experience any fade issues at track



]

The hell happened to your fender liner?

[makinen]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Looks very effective from that angle! Do you have any more pics? I think I'm gonna pick up a pair of those.

Here you are.

[randyzimmer]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Do you have any more pics? Those are very low resolution and the angles actually make it difficult to see what's what. The top picture I can tell is the back of the OEM caliper and bleed screw. The bottom pic I have no idea what I'm looking at.

Sorry, I have to rely on what I'm given, I (regrettably) don't own one of the twins.
The fans are mounted to two of the wheel bearing attachment bolts that I have drilled and tapped for small screws.



The air enters the fan in the center of the spindle and over the caliper mounting boss of the forging and then is directed down to the caliper pistons.
Above is a picture of a fan mounted in a similar arrangement for a 350Z.




Although the OEM floating caliper is ideal for this by having all the pistons right in the focus of the airflow,
I'm having good results on the 350Z and the STi's fixed calipers too.
The STI and many others can use a strut mounted housing to hold the fans.



I hope this helps explain it better.
I plan to have some better pictures after this weekend's tests.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

I have a proper cooling duct system installed that directs air into the center of the rotors and through the vanes, which is supposed to be the most effective way.


This setup has been okay for a while with titanium shims, Miller's racing brake fluid, and PMU Club Racer pads but my driving on track has gotten to the point where I'm glazing race pads and burning through them quickly. Not fading but definitely over heating, glazing, and wearing very quickly.

Instead of spending more money on stock size race pads I've ordered the AP Racing Sprint BBK to lose some weight and lower my long term operating costs since I'm at the track every month or so. The pads are much thicker and cheaper with a bigger variety of compounds available. Since the BBK is very thermally efficient in its own, I will be selling my Touge Factory cooling kit since the backing plates can no longer be used and I want there to be plenty of room up front for an intercooler and associated plumbing in the future. Not interested in creating any additional openings in front which add drag and complexity with hoses.


@glamcem I'd be very nervous driving with that hose setup on a 1-2" lowered car with 245 or wider tires. The hoses can get snagged on an object you drive over and wide enough tires could rub the hoses at full lock steering angles.

There's nothing to be nervous at all my setup is pretty much the same thing with APR brake ducting (that costs about $650) and uses the same 600 degree aircraft ducting material (as well as the Touge Factory kit) so basically people spend about $300+ for the spindle alone, and for a piece of aluminum I figured money can be well spent elsewhere.. I feel the OEM spindle is a lot better design ..if you ask me this is a lot better spindle/backing plate

http://bmautosports.com/shop/brakes/...g-duct-brzfrs/ since it uses the OEM design and the flange opening is bigger than the TF kit ..but of course it still costs a lot of money, if you are not comfortable with cutting the OEM spindle you can always get something like this (not sure if it would work with the AP racing kit though) for your future FI plans..also I wouldn't really worry about the drag effects of the small fog light area since many of the sports cars (such as Z06s ) come with similar designs and it should be negligible and I highly doubt the difference is quantifiable

Speaking of the rubbing, I have been using 17x9 wheels and I have plenty of space even at full lock, my tires are nowhere near close to the ducting hoses and that's with 1.5" drop with my Fortune Auto coilovers I will probably get 255/40/17 Nitto Nt01 next time since I have plenty of space and my SC demands for it..
when it comes to preventive maintenance I am really really picky , and at the track I never baby my car it's more like flat out all the time

Did I mention that this is not the first routing I tried? my initial methods didn't really work well I tried to use a custom made aluminum plate that I made with a plastic flange ..

I figured the only routing that may work well is the one that goes underneath the control arms since the tire itself will create enough clearance

Did you ever try using different pads on your car before pulling the trigger on the AP racing kit? such as DTC 60s, ST43s or Carbotechs? The reason I am asking is because if you don't see any abnormal wear on your rotor the problem is probably your brake pads .. again I am a bit skeptical about the brake bias even with the EBD, and I might change the whole setup (front and rears) when I am ready to upgrade ..weight savings are also huge plus as you mentioned,

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by solidONE

The hell happened to your fender liner?

ummm.. nothing at least in that picture
below picture is a different story though

[glamcem]

@ATL BRZ I forgot to mentioned that I already ordered the below splitter that should also help feeding more air through the brake ducting It should arrive today and I have another track day scheduled this weekend I will share my impressions before and after this setup

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65207

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by glamcem

There's nothing to be nervous at all my setup is pretty much the same thing with APR brake ducting (that costs about $650) and uses the same 600 degree aircraft ducting material (as well as the Touge Factory kit) so basically people spend about $300+ for the spindle alone, and for a piece of aluminum I figured money can be well spent elsewhere.. I feel the OEM spindle is a lot better design ..if you ask me this is a lot better spindle/backing plate

http://bmautosports.com/shop/brakes/...g-duct-brzfrs/ since it uses the OEM design and the flange opening is bigger than the TF kit ..but of course it still costs a lot of money, if you are not comfortable with cutting the OEM spindle you can always get something like this (not sure if it would work with the AP racing kit though) for your future FI plans..also I wouldn't really worry about the drag effects of the small fog light area since many of the sports cars (such as Z06s ) come with similar designs and it should be negligible and I highly doubt the difference is quantifiable

Speaking of the rubbing, I have been using 17x9 wheels and I have plenty of space even at full lock, my tires are nowhere near close to the ducting hoses and that's with 1.5" drop with my Fortune Auto coilovers I will probably get 255/40/17 Nitto Nt01 next time since I have plenty of space and my SC demands for it..
when it comes to preventive maintenance I am really really picky , and at the track I never baby my car it's more like flat out all the time

Did I mention that this is not the first routing I tried? my initial methods didn't really work well I tried to use a custom made aluminum plate that I made with a plastic flange ..

I figured the only routing that may work well is the one that goes underneath the control arms since the tire itself will create enough clearance

Did you ever try using different pads on your car before pulling the trigger on the AP racing kit? such as DTC 60s, ST43s or Carbotechs? The reason I am asking is because if you don't see any abnormal wear on your rotor the problem is probably your brake pads .. again I am a bit skeptical about the brake bias even with the EBD, and I might change the whole setup (front and rears) when I am ready to upgrade ..weight savings are also huge plus as you mentioned,

Thankfully as a track tester/reviewer of the TF kit I got a really good deal on it.

I must disagree that blowing air at the back face of the rotor via cutting the oem dust sheild, or the APR or PMU backing plates is a better design/more effective than sending the air into the center of the rotor and through the vanes. The latter is a well-established method in the racing world at cooling rotors much more effectively. There is lots of supporting data out there confirming this is the case. Why do you think Essex designed their Endurance kit mounting bracket to have the ducting direct air into the center of the rotors?

I applaud your efforts with your DIY solution but here's what I've found and how I've come to decide on the BBK. I've been fortunate enough to have a LOT of track time available when I'm instructing and I've gotten a lot more so far this year than I thought I would, with more still to go. I've not experienced abnormal wear on my rotors, in fact I've only recently in February installed my first set of new front rotors since installing the cooling kit last year with 10+ track days on the car. The calipers are definitely not designed for the kind of heat I put them through on track. Even with titanium shims my dust boots can't take the heat and have begun to split around the pistons. Race pads with an 800*C MOT are getting so much heat into them they are glazing, crumbling away and wearing too quickly for my taste. I considered getting Winmax W7 or a slightly higher MOT race pad but they are still well over $200 a set in front and have a relatively thin friction puck in OEM sizing.

With my driving experience increasing I'm getting faster in the car, and with new coilovers going on soon my entry speeds will go up that much more and so will my braking demands. I have been progressively less confident with my OEM front brakes every time I track my car despite all the provisions I've made to them. Could I buy more expensive rotors and pads and try those out? Sure. But they wont add any more thermal capacity to the system as a whole and that's where I've finally hit my breaking point (pun intended). I've gotten to the point where my cost for consumables is hurting me with all the track time I'm getting, and my confidence is still going down. The stock braking system isn't designed for track usage and the air ducting is simply a crutch for the system, which is not very thermally efficient at all by design. It has not solved the issue of my lack of braking confidence and it never will. There is only so much braking power a floating 2-piston caliper and 24mm wide rotor can deliver and the demand I'm bringing to them on track has far exceeded their thermal capacity. It took me a while to admit all this to myself but now that I can finally afford a BBK, I'm coming to terms with it all and deciding to cut my losses before getting too deep in consumables in an already inefficient system.

I'm admittedly a hard sale. I must have read the Essex Sprint Kit product page 10 times over before I finally came to terms that the pros of the BBK far outweigh the one single con: high entry price. Cheaper, thicker pads, more compound variety, more braking power, no dust boots, huge increase in thermal capacity/efficiency, 20lbs overall unsprung weight reduction...etc. The bias also remains near stock as the piston sizes were custom from Essex with that requirement in mind.

Tracking this car has been a learning experience for me and a very rewarding one at that. I suspect you may have the same experience as I did with the stock brakes even with your cooling modifications after some more track time. Especially considering your car is supercharged and will see much higher entry speeds than mine right off the bat. Many others here would agree with me that if you're serious about tracking a forced inducted 86 then you need to provision your braking system accordingly with a BBK. A modified OEM braking system will only get you so far before your driving skills and braking demands exceed the thermal capacity of the system and you start wearing the weakest point of the system too quickly (the pads in my case); like I said before the ducts are only a crutch to an already inefficient system. In my case I am now over-provisioning my brakes for the sake of getting back my lost braking confidence, lowering my long-term operating costs and having the car ready for possible FI in the future. I won't need ducting anymore but I did order the GT3 air guides since they are cheap, easy, and definitely functional.


@CSG Mike , can I get an amen?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Thankfully as a track tester/reviewer of the TF kit I got a really good deal on it.

I must disagree that blowing air at the back face of the rotor via cutting the oem dust sheild, or the APR or PMU backing plates is a better design/more effective than sending the air into the center of the rotor and through the vanes. The latter is a well-established method in the racing world at cooling rotors much more effectively. There is lots of supporting data out there confirming this is the case. Why do you think Essex designed their Endurance kit mounting bracket to have the ducting direct air into the center of the rotors?

I applaud your efforts with your DIY solution but here's what I've found and how I've come to decide on the BBK. I've been fortunate enough to have a LOT of track time available when I'm instructing and I've gotten a lot more so far this year than I thought I would, with more still to go. I've not experienced abnormal wear on my rotors, in fact I've only recently in February installed my first set of new front rotors since installing the cooling kit last year with 10+ track days on the car. The calipers are definitely not designed for the kind of heat I put them through on track. Even with titanium shims my dust boots can't take the heat and have begun to split around the pistons. Race pads with an 800*C MOT are getting so much heat into them they are glazing, crumbling away and wearing too quickly for my taste. I considered getting Winmax W7 or a slightly higher MOT race pad but they are still well over $200 a set in front and have a relatively thin friction puck in OEM sizing.

With my driving experience increasing I'm getting faster in the car, and with new coilovers going on soon my entry speeds will go up that much more and so will my braking demands. I have been progressively less confident with my OEM front brakes every time I track my car despite all the provisions I've made to them. Could I buy more expensive rotors and pads and try those out? Sure. But they wont have any more thermal capacity and that's where I've finally hit my breaking point (pun intended). I've gotten to the point where my cost for consumables is hurting me with all the track time I'm getting, and my confidence is still going down. The stock braking system isn't designed for track usage and the air ducting is simply a crutch for the system, which is not very thermally efficient at all by design. It has not solved the issue of my lack of braking confidence and it never will. There is only so much braking power a floating 2-piston caliper can deliver and the demand I'm bringing to them on track has far exceeded their thermal capacity. It took me a while to admit all this to myself but now that I can finally afford a BBK, I'm coming to terms with it all and deciding to cut my losses before getting too deep in consumables in an already inefficient system.

I'm admittedly a hard sale. I must have read the Essex Sprint Kit product page 10 times over before I finally came to terms that the pros of the BBK far outweigh the one single con: high entry price. Cheaper, thicker pads, more compound variety, more braking power, no dust boots, huge increase in thermal capacity/efficiency, 20lbs overall unsprung weight reduction...etc. The bias also remains near stock as the piston sizes were custom from Essex with that requirement in mind.

Tracking this car has been a learning experience for me and a very rewarding one at that. I suspect you may have the same experience as I did with the stock brakes even with your cooling modifications after some more track time. Especially considering your car is supercharged and will see much higher entry speeds than mine right off the bat. Many others here would agree with me that if you're serious about tracking a forced inducted 86 then you need to provision your braking system accordingly with a BBK. A modified OEM braking system will only get you so far before your driving skills and braking demands exceed the thermal capacity of the system and you start wearing the weakest point of the system too quickly (the pads in my case); like I said before the ducts are only a crutch to an already inefficient system. In my case I am now over-provisioning my brakes for the sake of getting back my lost braking confidence, lowering my long-term operating costs and having the car ready for possible FI in the future. I won't need ducting anymore but I did order the GT3 air guides since they are cheap, easy, and definitely functional.


@CSG Mike , can I get an amen?

We went though that exact same thought process when we upgraded from Sprint to Endurance to survive our current round of product testing.

We've been quiet this year, but we have some big projects in the works.

I need a BBK for my s2k...

You get a wholehearted, 100% absolute amen

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Thankfully as a track tester/reviewer of the TF kit I got a really good deal on it.

I must disagree that blowing air at the back face of the rotor via cutting the oem dust sheild, or the APR or PMU backing plates is a better design/more effective than sending the air into the center of the rotor and through the vanes. The latter is a well-established method in the racing world at cooling rotors much more effectively. There is lots of supporting data out there confirming this is the case. Why do you think Essex designed their Endurance kit mounting bracket to have the ducting direct air into the center of the rotors?

I applaud your efforts with your DIY solution but here's what I've found and how I've come to decide on the BBK. I've been fortunate enough to have a LOT of track time available when I'm instructing and I've gotten a lot more so far this year than I thought I would, with more still to go. I've not experienced abnormal wear on my rotors, in fact I've only recently in February installed my first set of new front rotors since installing the cooling kit last year with 10+ track days on the car. The calipers are definitely not designed for the kind of heat I put them through on track. Even with titanium shims my dust boots can't take the heat and have begun to split around the pistons. Race pads with an 800*C MOT are getting so much heat into them they are glazing, crumbling away and wearing too quickly for my taste. I considered getting Winmax W7 or a slightly higher MOT race pad but they are still well over $200 a set in front and have a relatively thin friction puck in OEM sizing.

With my driving experience increasing I'm getting faster in the car, and with new coilovers going on soon my entry speeds will go up that much more and so will my braking demands. I have been progressively less confident with my OEM front brakes every time I track my car despite all the provisions I've made to them. Could I buy more expensive rotors and pads and try those out? Sure. But they wont add any more thermal capacity to the system as a whole and that's where I've finally hit my breaking point (pun intended). I've gotten to the point where my cost for consumables is hurting me with all the track time I'm getting, and my confidence is still going down. The stock braking system isn't designed for track usage and the air ducting is simply a crutch for the system, which is not very thermally efficient at all by design. It has not solved the issue of my lack of braking confidence and it never will. There is only so much braking power a floating 2-piston caliper and 24mm wide rotor can deliver and the demand I'm bringing to them on track has far exceeded their thermal capacity. It took me a while to admit all this to myself but now that I can finally afford a BBK, I'm coming to terms with it all and deciding to cut my losses before getting too deep in consumables in an already inefficient system.

I'm admittedly a hard sale. I must have read the Essex Sprint Kit product page 10 times over before I finally came to terms that the pros of the BBK far outweigh the one single con: high entry price. Cheaper, thicker pads, more compound variety, more braking power, no dust boots, huge increase in thermal capacity/efficiency, 20lbs overall unsprung weight reduction...etc. The bias also remains near stock as the piston sizes were custom from Essex with that requirement in mind.

Tracking this car has been a learning experience for me and a very rewarding one at that. I suspect you may have the same experience as I did with the stock brakes even with your cooling modifications after some more track time. Especially considering your car is supercharged and will see much higher entry speeds than mine right off the bat. Many others here would agree with me that if you're serious about tracking a forced inducted 86 then you need to provision your braking system accordingly with a BBK. A modified OEM braking system will only get you so far before your driving skills and braking demands exceed the thermal capacity of the system and you start wearing the weakest point of the system too quickly (the pads in my case); like I said before the ducts are only a crutch to an already inefficient system. In my case I am now over-provisioning my brakes for the sake of getting back my lost braking confidence, lowering my long-term operating costs and having the car ready for possible FI in the future. I won't need ducting anymore but I did order the GT3 air guides since they are cheap, easy, and definitely functional.


@CSG Mike , can I get an amen?

I am not sure how the TF differs from the OEM spindle ( that I cut) on how it feeds the vanes.. a few mm difference maybe? and even so which one feeds more air is really questionable considering the size of the flange I still believe the my method should feed a bit more air maybe slightly closer to the outer side to each his own

I think you meant to say driver's side in this picture since the end links are facing back of the car ..anyways, looking at these pictures and it's really hard to tell a difference since they both sit pretty close to the hubs






oh and don't get me wrong, I am not questioning the benefits of having a BBK sooner or later I will upgrade my brakes especially since I am FI now it will become a necessity down the road .. but I think you did quite good in terms of "consumables" since I can consider myself really happy if I can get 7-8 track days with my rotors for the reference, I always separate my street and track rotors/pads bonds in different materials, I believe the consumables also depend on the track and the way you drive the car (late braking ..etc) but you're correct I've only had 4 track days with my car (2 with NA power 2 after FI) so it's too early to tell but then again I've had the car for 3 months,

another thing to mention, even with a BBK I would still find a way to feed air to the rotors instead of completely eliminating the ducting, that GT3 duct might work quite well for a GT3 but I am not so sure if it does anything measurable in our cars.. another info; even with my verry BIG C6 Z06 rotors and 6 pot calipers in my C6 Corvette I was planning to the some sort of ducting hose on top of the OEM air ducts.. my friend who had a Z06 with Z07 package still used his ducting even after upgrading a Stoptech BBK and we are talking about 15" rotors not some cute 13" rotors on our cars

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Another thing to mention, even with a BBK I would still find a way to feed air to the rotors instead of completely eliminating the ducting, that GT3 duct might work quite well for a GT3 but I am not so sure if it does anything measurable in our cars..

On a car this light with near stock power levels is it possible to overcool the rotors with a ducting on a BBK to the point where race pads will not reach their MOT on track.

The GT3 ducts are undoubtedly functional on our cars as well as 911's and Caymans. Lots of Porsche guys use them as upgrades, see:

http://www.planet-9.com/reviews/caym...-spoilers.html

http://www.planet-9.com/981-cayman-b...ake-ducts.html

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/b...y-boxster.html

They mount on the control arms on the Porsches the same way a few others here have mounted them and used zip ties for security. You end up with the same angle of attack that both applications have and you direct the mass of air in the wheel wells at speed to the rotors.

Just looking at the photos posted here from this perspective






...and then looking at the Porsche forum thread full of pics of these, I see no differences. They will work. To what measureable degree? Who knows. All I know is that for 30 bucks I'm not going to let all that air go to waste and fly past my control arms

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

On a car this light with near stock power levels is it possible to overcool the rotors with a ducting on a BBK to the point where race pads will not reach their MOT on track.

The GT3 ducts are undoubtedly functional on our cars as well as 911's and Caymans. Lots of Porsche guys use them as upgrades, see:


They mount on the control arms on the Porsches the same way a few others here have mounted them and used zip ties for security. You end up with the same angle of attack that both applications have and you direct the mass of air in the wheel wells at speed to the rotors.

Just looking at the photos posted here from this perspective



...and then looking at the Porsche forum thread full of pics of these, I see no differences. They will work. To what measureable degree? Who knows. All I know is that for 30 bucks I'm not going to let all that air go to waste and fly past my control arms

I don't believe the term "overcooling" and I never experienced or heard someone experienced that however, you can always crack your rotors with mismatched pads or tires, some pads are hasher than the others due to their operating temps

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

On a car this light with near stock power levels is it possible to overcool the rotors with a ducting on a BBK to the point where race pads will not reach their MOT on track.

This can be true with cars with more weight and power as well. Some tracks simply don't present braking demands at a level that will keep a car's rotors hot enough when running ducting. Mont Tremblant is an example, summer or spring/fall.

To my way of thinking, the ideal braking system on a track car will have ducting, and the owner will have made provisions for blocking that ducting off when on that type of track. Most drivers will use tape (cheap & easy); some go to the trouble of using something like expanding foam to create shaped plugs for the duct openings in the bumper cover.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by dradernh

This can be true with cars with more weight and power as well. Some tracks simply don't present braking demands at a level that will keep a car's rotors hot enough when running ducting. Mont Tremblant is an example, summer or spring/fall.

To my way of thinking, the ideal braking system on a track car will have ducting, and the owner will have made provisions for blocking that ducting off when on that type of track. Most drivers will use tape (cheap & easy); some go to the trouble of using something like expanding foam to create shaped plugs for the duct openings in the bumper cover.

you can always put some gorilla tapes on these fog light ducts but I am willing to bet you overcooling will never be an issue ( I wish I had an issue like that, that would be the least of my problems.. lol)