What if...Honda and Mazda joint together to come up something to compete with 86? - Page 3 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Endless Mike · 01-22-2013, 09:53 AM

Electric hybrids actually have plenty of potential to be fun. Torque from 0 RPM? Yes please! It's just that they've been used for fuel economy. A well-designed hybrid would be crazy fun, I think.

DarkSunrise · 01-22-2013, 11:58 AM

If Honda developed the powerplant (say a direct-injected F20 or K20) and Mazda developed the chassis (for example, a lightened 2-door RX-8), that car could be a viable competitor to the upcoming BRZ-STI. Imagine 260 hp NA in a 2700 lbs car.

Levi · 01-22-2013, 12:29 PM

But Honda and Mazda on their own could develop a viable GT86/BRZ competitor. Of course first of all they need the funds and the car has to bring profit, or aleast no loses.

But the task is not easy. First it has to be lighter, than even better balance, but that can only be achieved if the engine is mid-front mounted and eventually has a transaxle gearbox. Center of gravity can also be lowered thanks to dry sump, but all that increases costs on both sides. The GT86/BRZ is a hard package to beat. I guess the Alfa 4C will beat them, but it will also cost almost as a Cayman.

Xenocide117 · 01-22-2013, 12:42 PM

Dunno why Honda would need to redesign anything. Just start cranking out more S2000s. Maybe less premium to keep the cost down but don't reinvent the wheel.

CSG Mike · 01-22-2013, 12:50 PM

pipe dreams of a RX-7/S2000 frankenstein...

eljefe · 01-22-2013, 12:58 PM

This could be awesome if mazda designed a nice lightweight RWD chassis and honda supplied the powerplant.

Or even vice versa if honda brought a new rwd chassis out and used a rotary...

Dave-ROR · 01-22-2013, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

pipe dreams of a RX-7/S2000 frankenstein...

I'd take a lighter weight S2000 fixed roof coupe with a better rear suspension design and proper aero.

Screw Mazda, no need for them to enter the picture. Honda is capable of it. Too bad last I talked to them they basically said "yeah, there won't be more cars like the ITR and S2000 from us anytime soon."

NSX development is moving along well though, too bad it's so anti-NSX I would never buy one.

CSG Mike · 01-22-2013, 01:35 PM

Yup... I'm thinking something along the lines of a Rotary with Honda reliability, and a fixed roof coupe. No hatch business....

Imagine if the renesis had F20C reliability and MPG....

Strictly theoretical of course

Celica00 · 01-22-2013, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless Mike

Electric hybrids actually have plenty of potential to be fun. Torque from 0 RPM? Yes please! It's just that they've been used for fuel economy. A well-designed hybrid would be crazy fun, I think.

in due time, no doubt

gily25 · 01-22-2013, 02:56 PM

Assuming one of those listed did pull it together in time to build a competitor (coupe, rwd, ~200 hp) in the same price market ($24-28k) they would be at least a full generation behind this car. It would be comparable to the "catch-up" that other companies were forced to do to compete with Prius. However, unlike Prius where the mpg demand created the market and any financial losses in competing were justified by future sales, it would be hard for another car company or union to get it together fast enough. Especially at a cost that could be covered by demand, since as much as we want to be a majority of buyers we entry-level rwd coupe lovers are a small segment. If there's going to be any new entrants from those companies it will be slightly above FR-S/BRZ (hp & cost) and timed to market at the time that owners are looking for an upgrade.

That said it would be nice to see some competition, if anything to make race/autocross days more exciting.

whaap · 01-22-2013, 03:14 PM

There is one good thing that could come from a joint effort by Honda and Mazda. Maybe Honda could convince Miata to get rid of that stupid grin!!

FreshFRS · 01-22-2013, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

pipe dreams of a RX-7/S2000 frankenstein...

having had both.. YES! slightly longer than the S2K the new 16x rotary motor ~26-2700lbs, 250hp @ say 8000rpm or higher i'd be sold for sure as long as i could fit. i would take the fuel economy hit rotary power is awesome.

n2oinferno · 01-22-2013, 04:00 PM

Mazda doesn't need Honda. All they would have to do is elongate the MX-5 a bit, throw in a rear seat, and slap on a hatch. Done, instant competitor.

This, but a bit longer.

Grip Ronin · 01-24-2013, 12:33 AM

well they thought about the rotary but theres no way id take a rotary for a daily. esp with the emission regulations on the renesis. id have gotten a 13 wrx wagon

01-22-2013, 11:58 AM	#30
DarkSunrise Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Drives: 22 BRZ (Previously 13 FR-S) Location: USA Posts: 5,794 Thanks: 2,165 Thanked 4,242 Times in 2,220 Posts Mentioned: 48 Post(s) Tagged: 2 Thread(s)	If Honda developed the powerplant (say a direct-injected F20 or K20) and Mazda developed the chassis (for example, a lightened 2-door RX-8), that car could be a viable competitor to the upcoming BRZ-STI. Imagine 260 hp NA in a 2700 lbs car. __________________ "Never run out of real estate, traction, and ideas at the same time." 2022 BRZ Build 2013 FR-S Build

01-22-2013, 12:42 PM	#32
Xenocide117 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Drives: 2008 Honda Fit Vivid Blue Pearl Location: Tempe Arizona Posts: 140 Thanks: 12 Thanked 75 Times in 29 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Dunno why Honda would need to redesign anything. Just start cranking out more S2000s. Maybe less premium to keep the cost down but don't reinvent the wheel. __________________

01-24-2013, 12:33 AM	#42
Grip Ronin The Mechanic Join Date: Mar 2012 Drives: Civic Turbo,FR-S Location: NJ Posts: 928 Thanks: 130 Thanked 171 Times in 119 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	well they thought about the rotary but theres no way id take a rotary for a daily. esp with the emission regulations on the renesis. id have gotten a 13 wrx wagon __________________ IG-Joey_Soul Progress Thread Ported billet 20G

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01-22-2013, 09:53 AM	#29
Endless Mike Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Drives: 2013 Ultramarine FR-S Location: DC Posts: 70 Thanks: 14 Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts Mentioned: 6 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Electric hybrids actually have plenty of potential to be fun. Torque from 0 RPM? Yes please! It's just that they've been used for fuel economy. A well-designed hybrid would be crazy fun, I think.

01-22-2013, 12:29 PM	#31
Levi Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Drives: Toyota Location: Germany Posts: 1,202 Thanks: 134 Thanked 138 Times in 90 Posts Mentioned: 5 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	But Honda and Mazda on their own could develop a viable GT86/BRZ competitor. Of course first of all they need the funds and the car has to bring profit, or aleast no loses. But the task is not easy. First it has to be lighter, than even better balance, but that can only be achieved if the engine is mid-front mounted and eventually has a transaxle gearbox. Center of gravity can also be lowered thanks to dry sump, but all that increases costs on both sides. The GT86/BRZ is a hard package to beat. I guess the Alfa 4C will beat them, but it will also cost almost as a Cayman.

01-22-2013, 12:50 PM	#33
CSG Mike Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: S2000 CR Location: Orange County Posts: 14,535 Thanks: 8,927 Thanked 14,181 Times in 6,837 Posts Mentioned: 966 Post(s) Tagged: 14 Thread(s)	pipe dreams of a RX-7/S2000 frankenstein...

01-22-2013, 12:58 PM	#34
eljefe Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Drives: SS BRZ LMTD 6MT, 92 Civic hatch RHD Location: Texas Posts: 112 Thanks: 30 Thanked 30 Times in 21 Posts Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	This could be awesome if mazda designed a nice lightweight RWD chassis and honda supplied the powerplant. Or even vice versa if honda brought a new rwd chassis out and used a rotary...

01-22-2013, 01:35 PM	#36
CSG Mike Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: S2000 CR Location: Orange County Posts: 14,535 Thanks: 8,927 Thanked 14,181 Times in 6,837 Posts Mentioned: 966 Post(s) Tagged: 14 Thread(s)	Yup... I'm thinking something along the lines of a Rotary with Honda reliability, and a fixed roof coupe. No hatch business.... Imagine if the renesis had F20C reliability and MPG.... Strictly theoretical of course

01-22-2013, 02:56 PM	#38
gily25 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Drives: Silica BRZ 6MT Location: 06103 Posts: 650 Thanks: 97 Thanked 115 Times in 92 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Assuming one of those listed did pull it together in time to build a competitor (coupe, rwd, ~200 hp) in the same price market ($24-28k) they would be at least a full generation behind this car. It would be comparable to the "catch-up" that other companies were forced to do to compete with Prius. However, unlike Prius where the mpg demand created the market and any financial losses in competing were justified by future sales, it would be hard for another car company or union to get it together fast enough. Especially at a cost that could be covered by demand, since as much as we want to be a majority of buyers we entry-level rwd coupe lovers are a small segment. If there's going to be any new entrants from those companies it will be slightly above FR-S/BRZ (hp & cost) and timed to market at the time that owners are looking for an upgrade. That said it would be nice to see some competition, if anything to make race/autocross days more exciting.

01-22-2013, 03:14 PM	#39
whaap Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Drives: '13 FR-S firestorm, 6 mt - '11 CR-V Location: Tucson Posts: 2,133 Thanks: 243 Thanked 1,387 Times in 657 Posts Mentioned: 36 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	There is one good thing that could come from a joint effort by Honda and Mazda. Maybe Honda could convince Miata to get rid of that stupid grin!!

01-22-2013, 04:00 PM	#41
n2oinferno Praise Helix! Join Date: Jan 2011 Drives: Accord 2.0T, Silverado Location: Upstate SC Posts: 2,859 Thanks: 428 Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,072 Posts Mentioned: 11 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Mazda doesn't need Honda. All they would have to do is elongate the MX-5 a bit, throw in a rear seat, and slap on a hatch. Done, instant competitor. This, but a bit longer.

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