FT-86 / FR-S size dimensions compared to Genesis, Civic, Sction tC, etc

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Just based on the fact it's a boxer, it'll have a bit more torque than say....a Honda engine of the same size.

Getting the power down with an NA engine doing 200ish hp will not be a problem at all.

Originally Posted by Aki

It really depends on how and where it's making the power. Honda's have lower torque because they make their horsepower at high RPMs, from 6000-8000. Horsepower is calculated from torque, and they always intersect at 5252 RPM. Any point beyond that, when horsepower gains you'll see the torque dropping on a dyno.

If the FT86's boxer engine makes say 200 hp with a 7000 redline, then yes it'll have more torque. If it makes that horsepower up higher, then you'll see similar torque figures to a Honda K20 engine.

^ The context was absolutely to do with engines of the same displacement. Both your incorrect statement, and my response. K20 also being a 2.0L motor.

Originally Posted by Aki

No, you're simply not grasping the fact that the an engine like the F20C has to work at higher RPMs for its power, which is big part of why it's got less torque than say a Scion TC. Granted there are a lot of other factors that lead to the particular torque characteristics of an engine, but as a general principle it's true. Why else would they increases the displacement for the S2000 and have a lower redline? More torque.

You are changing the argument. Your original response was related to engines being the same size.

Originally Posted by Aki

Sigh. I know how DI works, and it's irrelevant. You can explain all day bore and stroke, DI, VVT, iVtec, intake runner length or whatever, but it's completely irrelevant. How the horsepower number is derived is contingent upon the torque. The higher the RPM at peak horsepower, the less torque there is compared to an engine making the same horsepower at a lower RPM. Engines that are peakey are just less torquey. I'm not even comparing engines, because it's not relevant.

Then you should've been aware that it was also completely irrelevant argument given the context of same displacement, same aspiration motors.

Originally Posted by Aki

Again, failure in comprehension. Power peaking low doesn't mean it automatically makes gobs of torque. You're mistaking causality here, and I'm not even sure why. There are many ways to get more torque, but you don't get it by purposely keeping the power peak low for sake of keeping it low... nor did I ever say that.

Really? My comprehension? No. Observe...

Originally Posted by Aki

Diesels and FI have lots of torque because they hit their peak at low RPMs.

I am correcting and clarifying your misinformation. If you're not going to be clear and accurate don't post up tech stuff.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Dimman

You are changing the argument. Your original response was related to engines being the same size.

Erm no. Please point to the particular phrase/sentence where I said this is about the same displacement.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Aki

Erm no. Please point to the particular phrase/sentence where I said this is about the same displacement.

First two quotes in the post above. Guy asking specifically about engines of the same size. You quoting him when you answered. And referencing another engine of the same size.

Don't throw the 'Net 'reading comprehension' excuse out when the issue fully lies on your lack of clarity. Assuming that you are not just back-tracking (which based on your first statement about torque dropping off on a dyno, looks exactly like that, and not a simple oversight error).

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Dimman

First two quotes in the post above. Guy asking specifically about engines of the same size. You quoting him when you answered. And referencing another engine of the same size.

In other words, that's you just jumping to conclusions. Good job hinging your whole argument on a presumption.

Don't throw the 'Net 'reading comprehension' excuse out when the issue fully lies on your lack of clarity.

No, this is where I throw in "winning an argument on the internet is like winning the special olympics." The issue lies in your getting riled up over something on the internet. And since this is thoroughly off-topic, I'm ending it at that.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Aki

In other words, that's you just jumping to conclusions. Good job hinging your whole argument on a presumption. Who's backtracking now?



No, this is where I throw in "winning an argument on the internet is like winning the special olympics."

So it would be wrong to assume that the guy you answered was expecting your answer, quoting his question, to be relevant in some small way to what he asked?

Does this argument have to do with your marketing background, spinning shit so that you're not wrong? Sigh...

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Does this argument have to do with your marketing background, spinning shit so that you're not wrong? Sigh...

That actually made me laugh, well played sir. Go outside, take a deep breath, breathe out slowly. It'll be alright man =)

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Aki

That actually made me laugh, well played sir. Go outside, take a deep breath, breathe out slowly. It'll be alright man =)

That was half the intent.

And I would, but it's raining...

[Snaps]

Aki - assuming two engines are DESIGNED to have the same max. power, then yes, the one that makes that peak power higher in the rev range will have a lower torque at that point - that is basically all that Power equation states....

The argument here is NOT limited to a certain max. power... A 'peaky' powerband will be caused by a 'peaky' torque, which, as someone said, is related to the intake port sizes, and other things like VVT-i, V-TEC, etc. (as these change timing and the way the air flows into the combustion chamber.). However, because this argument is NOT limited to a max. power, then that doesn't matter....

Engines that rev high are DESIGNED that way - the heads are designed with larger intake/exhaust ports so the engine can flow more air at higher rpm's, and not get restricted. On the other hand, an engine that is DESIGNED to rev lower will have smaller ports, so will make more torque at a lower numerical rpm, however, compared to the whole rev range of both engines, at the respective points in each engine, the higher-revving engine should make roughly the same torque as the lower-revving engine. Provided they have the same displacement.

E.g.

Redline ------ Comparitive rpm point

5000 -------- 2500 (1/2)
9000 -------- 4500 (1/2)

That is how you should compare two engines with different rev limits, IMO...

It is COMPLETELY unfair to compare two engines with different displacements, as a higher displacement will ALWAYS produce a higher torque if the two engines have similar intake/exhaust port/exhaust/intake setups...

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

you are just back-tracking (which based on your first statement about torque dropping off on a dyno, looks exactly like that, and not a simple oversight error).

Fixed that there a little for you.

[Aki]

Aki - assuming two engines are DESIGNED to have the same max. power, then yes, the one that makes that peak power higher in the rev range will have a lower torque at that point - that is basically all that Power equation states....

And that's all I was stating. Thought we were talking about a specific max power (ie 200hp), and it seems like the topic blew up into something else.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Fixed that there a little for you.

If you'd like to believe that then by all means do so.

[Snaps]

It just didn't sound like you were discussing it only to a specific max hp... You never stated it in your post, and it didn't sound like you implied it either.

(Not arguing, just clarifying )

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Snaps

It just didn't sound like you were discussing it only to a specific max hp... You never stated it in your post, and it didn't sound like you implied it either.

(Not arguing, just clarifying )

Ahh, yeah I definitely could've been a lot clearer and precise, so my humble apologies for that =)

[aliphian]

Toyota/Subaru really need to give us some data. Without it, every thread disintegrates into speculative madness.

[NESW20]

Originally Posted by aliphian

Toyota/Subaru really need to give us some data. Without it, every thread disintegrates into speculative madness.

^^this x eleventybillion