Car & Driver Comparison Test Review: Veloster N vs. GTI vs. BRZ vs. GR86

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Going to be LOLing hard when we have all these EV's and a sub par power grid. Wind turbines and solar, double LOLs

And all the noise generator tunes!
"Anybody got a file for a Honda pop and crackle loop?"

[Robertw]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I don't disagree but at the same time it is important to know that the exact same words were said about the first gen. It is also a "classic".

I would expect it to be quicker than a car that ended production 12 years ago, one that has not had an upgrade in 5 years and the version it is replacing. All that should be a given.

You wait. It won't take long for the internet to decide that it should be at least 250HP and a full second faster to be able to compete with minivans and the family sedan.

The point you're missing is that those old cars are what people are nostalgic for now, and paying insane amounts of money to obtain. We basically have the modern interpretation of those cars with the GR86, but this time exceeding those older cars performance metrics. It may not sell crazy well, but I doubt critics will be complaining anytime soon about what the car is and how much power it has, especially with what's coming next, there's rumors the next miata will be a hybrid.

If people want to race minivans and beat them, those cars exist, 400z, mustang GT, etc. Get them while you still can.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

The point you're missing is that those old cars are what people are nostalgic for now, and paying insane amounts of money to obtain. We basically have the modern interpretation of those cars with the GR86, but this time exceeding those older cars performance metrics. It may not sell crazy well, but I doubt critics will be complaining anytime soon about what the car is and how much power it has, especially with what's coming next, there's rumors the next miata will be a hybrid.

If people want to race minivans and beat them, those cars exist, 400z, mustang GT, etc. Get them while you still can.

You have managed to totally misunderstand what I have been saying.
I am one of those foolish people that was quite happy with the performance of the first gen so am not looking for faster.
The new ones are an improvement and almost dead on what I said they would be back when the internet and many here were doing a happy dance that they were all going to be 250+HP turbos.

One of the most often asked questions on this forum has been "what do I need to do to get 300HP because that is what the car NEEDS to be any good". The reviews for the first year of the FRS/BRZ were all very positive with little said about being slow or underpowered. Those statement came out later and were usually fueled by people that had no intention of ever owning one anyway. I strongly doubt hat that very large and vocal group has been appeased by a 15% increase in power.

As you said there will always be faster cars and that is what they will get compared to. Your benchmark cars are an exception not the rule when it comes to the internet bench racers. They will want to see a Porsche quality car for a base model econobox price and since even the second gen (as improved as it is) just will not do for them. Down the road there will be cries of "ya it is better but it still NEEDS ..."!

[Lantanafrs2]

With the added power, the auto is really tantalizing to me right now.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I don't disagree but at the same time it is important to know that the exact same words were said about the first gen. It is also a "classic".

I would expect it to be quicker than a car that ended production 12 years ago, one that has not had an upgrade in 5 years and the version it is replacing. All that should be a given.

You wait. It won't take long for the internet to decide that it should be at least 250HP and a full second faster to be able to compete with minivans and the family sedan.

We're beyond that with EV's.
The internet is going to be clamoring for the NEXT twins to have like 500hp EV motors with instant torque and 0-60 in 3 seconds.....and that'll be considered slow because the tesla model M minivan plaid ludicrous edition can do 0-60 in 1 second flat with the instant torques.
Because god knows we need all that power.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You have managed to totally misunderstand what I have been saying.
I am one of those foolish people that was quite happy with the performance of the first gen so am not looking for faster.
The new ones are an improvement and almost dead on what I said they would be back when the internet and many here were doing a happy dance that they were all going to be 250+HP turbos.

One of the most often asked questions on this forum has been "what do I need to do to get 300HP because that is what the car NEEDS to be any good". The reviews for the first year of the FRS/BRZ were all very positive with little said about being slow or underpowered. Those statement came out later and were usually fueled by people that had no intention of ever owning one anyway. I strongly doubt hat that very large and vocal group has been appeased by a 15% increase in power.

As you said there will always be faster cars and that is what they will get compared to. Your benchmark cars are an exception not the rule when it comes to the internet bench racers. They will want to see a Porsche quality car for a base model econobox price and since even the second gen (as improved as it is) just will not do for them. Down the road there will be cries of "ya it is better but it still NEEDS ..."!

Weren't you predicting a heavy hybrid?

[AK2112]

The way I see it, the new BRZ is only one in this 30-35k fun car category that doesn't have glaring oversights.

New Civic SI is a bit down on power. New GTI has the poor interior controls. Veloster is just ugly with the 3 door setup.

A BRZ might not work for everyone in their daily driving but aside from that, there's no real flaws to it.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Going to be LOLing hard when we have all these EV's and a sub par power grid. Wind turbines and solar, double LOLs

What some of these EV nuts dont realize is that their use cases and advantages are based on the current usage ratio of EV/ICE existing.

Once everyone's on the same page.....things are going to be a bit different.

I suspect:
-Charging at Off peak times will not happen because the off-peak period being used right now is likely to not be "off peak" anymore, or everyone is going to charge at the same times really shoot the peak up and that will cause an issue with the utilities unless the utility companies upgrade the grid.
-Pricing advantage isnt gonna be as much. I am estimating that electricity prices will go up once everyones on board because the utility combanies now have a new source of revenue and although its still gonna be cheaper, its not going to be drastically cheaper than right now.
-Charging infrastructure will likely be more built up, but what about current locations, they're not gonna increase stations (they likely only have a finite amount of space to work with)....so with more EV's on the roads we might start seeing costco sized lineups at charging stations if people want/need to charge due to 15+min charge times.
-apps... ok i this is probably my new number one for hating on the EV. The usage of APPs. I mean cmon, i dont want to be "connected" to my car in any way, nor do i want to fuck around with a plethora of apps that all do the same thing but all exist because each and every one of these companies have their own....Ive been reading about this and this sounds like its going to be stupidly annoying to deal with.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by AK2112

The way I see it, the new BRZ is only one in this 30-35k fun car category that doesn't a have glaring oversight.

New Civic SI is front wheel drive.
New GTI is front wheel drive.
Veloster is front wheel drive.

Fixed that for you.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

What some of these EV nuts dont realize is that their use cases and advantages are based on the current usage ratio of EV/ICE existing.

Once everyone's on the same page.....things are going to be a bit different.

I suspect:
-Charging at Off peak times will not happen because the off-peak period being used right now is likely to not be "off peak" anymore, or everyone is going to charge at the same times really shoot the peak up and that will cause an issue with the utilities unless the utility companies upgrade the grid.
-Pricing advantage isnt gonna be as much. I am estimating that electricity prices will go up once everyones on board because the utility combanies now have a new source of revenue and although its still gonna be cheaper, its not going to be drastically cheaper than right now.
-Charging infrastructure will likely be more built up, but what about current locations, they're not gonna increase stations (they likely only have a finite amount of space to work with)....so with more EV's on the roads we might start seeing costco sized lineups at charging stations if people want/need to charge due to 15+min charge times.
-apps... ok i this is probably my new number one for hating on the EV. The usage of APPs. I mean cmon, i dont want to be "connected" to my car in any way, nor do i want to fuck around with a plethora of apps that all do the same thing but all exist because each and every one of these companies have their own....Ive been reading about this and this sounds like its going to be stupidly annoying to deal with.

Not to mention a huge mileage tax to make up for the lost revenue on gasoline.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

Weren't you predicting a heavy hybrid?

It was one of the possibilities. Was more of a concern than a prediction though.
The other was around a 225HP using the D4s and a Subaru of some type.

Remember for a while there the clickbaits not only had it a turbo but a Toyota engine!

[MaverickJo]

I agree in the past generation the "its slower than a minivan" argument came after the initial praise but look at the stats from this test.

Only the Veloster N beats the twins 0-60 by .3 seconds and is only .1 second behind in the quarter mile. That is impressive in my book because it would basically come down to the driver even without a turbo.

The BRZ/GR86 beat the GTI both to 60 and through the quarter which is something I was surprised by.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MaverickJo

I agree in the past generation the "its slower than a minivan" argument came after the initial praise but look at the stats from this test.

Only the Veloster N beats the twins 0-60 by .3 seconds and is only .1 second behind in the quarter mile. That is impressive in my book because it would basically come down to the driver even without a turbo.

The BRZ/GR86 beat the GTI both to 60 and through the quarter which is something I was surprised by.

Everybody seems to think I am slamming the results! I am no way, shape or form trying to say the results are not good. They are spot on what they needed to be if they were going to attract new "enthusiast" buyers but not going over the top to scare away the "casual" drivers.

My very very simple point (that people seem to be missing in their almost rabid defense of the improvements) is that in a year or so from now the people THAT WON'T BUY THIS CAR ANYWAY will be saying it is no good since it has less power and is slower than this that and the other thing.

The exact same thing happened with the first gen and history is bound to repeat itself with this one.

[MaverickJo]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Everybody seems to think I am slamming the results! I am no way, shape or form trying to say the results are not good. They are spot on what they needed to be if they were going to attract new "enthusiast" buyers but not going over the top to scare away the "casual" drivers.

My very very simple point (that people seem to be missing in their almost rabid defense of the improvements) is that in a year or so from now the people THAT WON'T BUY THIS CAR ANYWAY will be saying it is no good since it has less power and is slower than this that and the other thing.

The exact same thing happened with the first gen and history is bound to repeat itself with this one.

No I totally agree with you, there will definitely be those people for sure. I was more pointing to the fact that the old gen was slower against all the competition.

Now to say it needs more power/turbo/supercharger, given the new performance stats, would be to say the turbo hot hatchbacks also need more power because the 86 matches them (within fractions of a sec) or beats them without any boost.