FRS stands for "FUN but REALLY SLOW"

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

RWD, FWD, doesn't matter. Steady-state balance is about suspension tuning. Look at the new FWD Focus ST. From all reports, it's fairly neutral at maximum speed around the skidpad. (Or you can use my old RWD Crown Vic as an example of a RWD car that understeers at that point).

To your second point about needing to break traction, that's pretty obvious isn't it? That's exactly why you bring a car to maximum speed around a skidpad, to see what its handling balance is at that point when it's about to break traction. How it responds to throttle input at that point tells you how balanced it is.

I think maybe you don't understand my point. Any RWD car will oversteer at the limit if you're too abrupt with the throttle. I can hop in any Crown Vic and make it oversteer like crazy with nothing but throttle and steering input. Can it understeer too? Sure, but not on a skidpad with a wide open throttle.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

I think maybe you don't understand my point. Any RWD car will oversteer at the limit if you're too abrupt with the throttle. I can hop in any Crown Vic and make it oversteer like crazy with nothing but throttle and steering input. Can it understeer too? Sure, but not on a skidpad with a wide open throttle.

What you're describing is not steady-state cornering. That's a power-on situation.

Also on a skidpad, you're not WOT.

The point of a skidpad is to describe what the car is like "steady-state", i.e., with enough throttle input to hold the car at its maximum speed around the skidpad.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

What you're describing is not steady-state cornering. That's a power-on situation.

Also on a skidpad, you're not WOT.

The point of a skidpad is to describe what the car is like "steady-state", i.e., with enough throttle input to hold the car at its maximum speed around the skidpad.

Of course you're not WOT. I was just demonstrating that the driver can control whether or not a car oversteers or not on a skidpad. Too much throttle on a RWD car and you'll oversteer every time. It's the nature of the beast!

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Of course you're not WOT. I was just demonstrating that the driver can control whether or not a car oversteers or not on a skidpad. Too much throttle on a RWD car and you'll oversteer every time. It's the nature of the beast!

Yep. This whole discussion is why I wanted to be clear what I meant when I said the the FR-S is nearly neutral at the limit. That means steady-state cornering around a skidpad. Terms like "neutral" and "at the limit" get thrown around frequently without clarification or detail, causing confusion.

Very few cars I've driven are setup from the factory as close to neutral as the FR-S (and I've owned/driven Caymans, STIs, Evos, 370zs, Miatas, GTIs, various BMWs, Mustangs, etc.) The Evo X GSR comes to mind, maybe the S2000 although I didn't get to push it this hard. Also my old RSX fitted with an aftermarket suspension setup (large rear bar).

Personally I think it's fun to drive a car setup like this, but just my opinion.

[SUB-FT86]

If the FRS balance is great at the limit with 200hp then wouldn't a larger sum of power throw its balance of a bit? I guess you will need to upgrade the suspension I guess.

[roadtrip1098]

Good post, lots of good points from both sides. I'm sure I'll create some hate and discontent with this though though.

When it comes to handling, the engineers decided to fit thinner tires on the car so it would be more edgy and easier to break traction with. In the past if you wanted to make a car edgy you just added power. I completely understand that smaller tires and less power is more economical, but for a sports car? In the company of V6 Mustangs, Hyundai Genisis, ect. I see the BRZ falling short. Yes it handles better than a Mustang, but in the road and track test (might have been car and driver), the Stang somehow held a considerable lead on a road course, followed by the Genisis and it shoddy gearbox.

My problem isn't that the BRZ/FRS is slow, it's that there are plenty of alternative platforms out there that do the same thing for less money - even while doing it on an outdated platform.

To me the BRZ should have been less than $20,000 base price vehicle. If you want to compete with the big boys at the $26k-$28k base price, keep the wider tires on it and give it either the H6 3.0, a supercharger, or turbo.

The TRD/STi versions will come out in 2014 with some of those options, but at a price in the mid $30k range, stepping up competition to things like the 370z, Mustangs, EVO's, Infinity, even BMW 3 series. In that class I'm afraid the BRZ/FRS will not only be outperformed, but also outclassed.

[Apoc]

Originally Posted by roadtrip1098

Good post, lots of good points from both sides. I'm sure I'll create some hate and discontent with this though though.

When it comes to handling, the engineers decided to fit thinner tires on the car so it would be more edgy and easier to break traction with. In the past if you wanted to make a car edgy you just added power. I completely understand that smaller tires and less power is more economical, but for a sports car? In the company of V6 Mustangs, Hyundai Genisis, ect. I see the BRZ falling short. Yes it handles better than a Mustang, but in the road and track test (might have been car and driver), the Stang somehow held a considerable lead on a road course, followed by the Genisis and it shoddy gearbox.

My problem isn't that the BRZ/FRS is slow, it's that there are plenty of alternative platforms out there that do the same thing for less money - even while doing it on an outdated platform.

To me the BRZ should have been less than $20,000 base price vehicle. If you want to compete with the big boys at the $26k-$28k base price, keep the wider tires on it and give it either the H6 3.0, a supercharger, or turbo.

The TRD/STi versions will come out in 2014 with some of those options, but at a price in the mid $30k range, stepping up competition to things like the 370z, Mustangs, EVO's, Infinity, even BMW 3 series. In that class I'm afraid the BRZ/FRS will not only be outperformed, but also outclassed.

You may create some discontent because you are missing the point of FR-S's design concept. None of which was to outclass BMW or anyone. If look beyond the numbers you can see that this car was meant to be an affordable drivers car. It was designed to be a blank canvas to customize easily to the drivers purposes. They went cheap on items like tires because it keeps the price down and allows for owners to do an easy upgrade (which they are likely to do). You may see STi or TRD versions but I think this is just a distraction till they come out with higher end sports coupes which Toyota have been missing from their line up for a long time.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by roadtrip1098

When it comes to handling, the engineers decided to fit thinner tires on the car so it would be more edgy and easier to break traction with. In the past if you wanted to make a car edgy you just added power. I completely understand that smaller tires and less power is more economical, but for a sports car? In the company of V6 Mustangs, Hyundai Genisis, ect. I see the BRZ falling short. Yes it handles better than a Mustang, but in the road and track test (might have been car and driver), the Stang somehow held a considerable lead on a road course, followed by the Genisis and it shoddy gearbox.

My problem isn't that the BRZ/FRS is slow, it's that there are plenty of alternative platforms out there that do the same thing for less money - even while doing it on an outdated platform.

To me the BRZ should have been less than $20,000 base price vehicle. If you want to compete with the big boys at the $26k-$28k base price, keep the wider tires on it and give it either the H6 3.0, a supercharger, or turbo.

The TRD/STi versions will come out in 2014 with some of those options, but at a price in the mid $30k range, stepping up competition to things like the 370z, Mustangs, EVO's, Infinity, even BMW 3 series. In that class I'm afraid the BRZ/FRS will not only be outperformed, but also outclassed.

It's not about how fast you get to your destination, it's about having fun on your way. Cars with more HP like the evo, sti, v8 stang are MUCH more fun than the FRS in a straight line, but if you've ever driven the frs on the type of road it's meant for you'll experience a different type of fun than just driving in a straight line.

This car was made in the image of the ae86; it's meant for windy mountain roads. You can't feel how low the car's center of gravity is in a straight line. Unfortunately not everyone has access to the type of roads this car was meant for. In that case, the other cars you mentioned will by far give you a more exciting drive, if your drive consists of straight roads with occasional turns. Luckily, I live about 45 min away from Palomar mountain, which is by far the closest I've ever been to an actual Touge. This is what the Palomar road looks like:





This car is meant for those tight switch backs. I love driving my friends 400hp evo, having your entire body mashed into the seat from the acceleration is thrilling. But I'll never forget the first time I drove palomar south grade in my frs. I stopped at the restaurant at the top and my hands were shaking like the first time I rode a motorcycle.


Read the following about the AE86 and perhaps you will understand. But until you get this car on the type of road it's meant for, the japanese call it a Touge, you will never understand or experience the joy this type of car can create.

AE86 description:

The rear wheel drive configuration, combined with the AE86's light weight (approximately 2300 lb (950–970 kg) curb weight), balance and relatively powerful (and easy to tune) 4A-GEU engine made it popular among the Japanese hashiriya (street racers in Japanese), many of whom raced in mountain passes (touge in Japanese) where the corners suited the AE86 best, especially on the downhill.[

[Demandred7]

Originally Posted by roadtrip1098

Good post, lots of good points from both sides. I'm sure I'll create some hate and discontent with this though though.

When it comes to handling, the engineers decided to fit thinner tires on the car so it would be more edgy and easier to break traction with. In the past if you wanted to make a car edgy you just added power. I completely understand that smaller tires and less power is more economical, but for a sports car? In the company of V6 Mustangs, Hyundai Genisis, ect. I see the BRZ falling short. Yes it handles better than a Mustang, but in the road and track test (might have been car and driver), the Stang somehow held a considerable lead on a road course, followed by the Genisis and it shoddy gearbox.

My problem isn't that the BRZ/FRS is slow, it's that there are plenty of alternative platforms out there that do the same thing for less money - even while doing it on an outdated platform.

To me the BRZ should have been less than $20,000 base price vehicle. If you want to compete with the big boys at the $26k-$28k base price, keep the wider tires on it and give it either the H6 3.0, a supercharger, or turbo.

The TRD/STi versions will come out in 2014 with some of those options, but at a price in the mid $30k range, stepping up competition to things like the 370z, Mustangs, EVO's, Infinity, even BMW 3 series. In that class I'm afraid the BRZ/FRS will not only be outperformed, but also outclassed.

The problem is that they aren't doing more for less.

They aren't doing the same things at all.

I don't know what EVO's, Infinity, or 370's you are getting for low to mid $30 k (except previously loved vehicles).

Have you even driven the car or have you only read the specs in a magazine?

This car is all about the smiles per mile (or km (if you prefer)).

[gmookher]

Fun Really: Supercharged

[Coheed]

Originally Posted by gmookher

Fun Really: Supercharged

When you get your car done, there better be lots of videos.

[Demandred7]

Originally Posted by Coheed

When you get your car done, there better be lots of videos.

What he said. I am quite interested to see the results of your build. And the $$ associated. I know that it isn't huge for you, but, despite the fun that I already have with car it may be further exploited with supercharging.

[WolfpackS2k]

Why are some people putting down the Evo in the handling department? Through the magic of it's AWD system the Evo is one of the sharpest handling cars you can buy for under $100k.

[Razz]

Originally Posted by gonzo

It's not about how fast you get to your destination, it's about having fun on your way. Cars with more HP like the evo, sti, v8 stang are MUCH more fun than the FRS in a straight line, but if you've ever driven the frs on the type of road it's meant for you'll experience a different type of fun than just driving in a straight line.

This car was made in the image of the ae86; it's meant for windy mountain roads. You can't feel how low the car's center of gravity is in a straight line. Unfortunately not everyone has access to the type of roads this car was meant for. In that case, the other cars you mentioned will by far give you a more exciting drive, if your drive consists of straight roads with occasional turns. Luckily, I live about 45 min away from Palomar mountain, which is by far the closest I've ever been to an actual Touge. This is what the Palomar road looks like:





This car is meant for those tight switch backs. I love driving my friends 400hp evo, having your entire body mashed into the seat from the acceleration is thrilling. But I'll never forget the first time I drove palomar south grade in my frs. I stopped at the restaurant at the top and my hands were shaking like the first time I rode a motorcycle.


Read the following about the AE86 and perhaps you will understand. But until you get this car on the type of road it's meant for, the japanese call it a Touge, you will never understand or experience the joy this type of car can create.

AE86 description:

The rear wheel drive configuration, combined with the AE86's light weight (approximately 2300 lb (950–970 kg) curb weight), balance and relatively powerful (and easy to tune) 4A-GEU engine made it popular among the Japanese hashiriya (street racers in Japanese), many of whom raced in mountain passes (touge in Japanese) where the corners suited the AE86 best, especially on the downhill.[

You shouldn't be driving beyond your limits or at your limits on a public road.

This is what track days are for.

You could have easily killed someone on a bicycle, motorcycle or even a car.


Shame on you.