Stage 2 Cosworth Kit Preview!!!!

[Jyn]

Originally Posted by 350matt

I suspect the rallysport car on the cosworth stand is a show car with lots of nice bits on it, after all its not cosworth's car , it just has the cosworth kit on it as they are a cosworth vendor

and yes you make an interesting point about long term longevity, I suspect most folks whack on a FI kit and go for broke without thinking just how long the stock bottom end will last

I'd hope that Cosworth have considered this with this kit, hence why the boost is pegged much lower than what the charger is capable of to help keep the stock bottom end alive

I was under the impression that the whole reason the 2.0 kit was pegged so low on the boost was for that very reason. IIRC, they even advise to upgrade internals if the owner wants to push the blower to 300bhp or above. To me, this shows a lot more consideration from Cosworth than many other F/I companies that seem to claim 16 psi on stock internals has no issue longevity-wise.

Originally Posted by Koa

A lot is working against this car's ability to be FI; the whole drivetrain should be considered, not just the motor.

The high compression FA20 doesn't warrant great results boosted without getting into the guts with some lower compression, forged internals, and whatnot

People always have their retrospect goggles on when they mention things like old LSx, 2JZ, RB26, etc. platforms that can be pushed well beyond their limits, forgetting that back then, emissions and regulations were nowhere near what they are today. The fact that our cars can do what they do at the price point they're at with the regulations in place is astounding to me. Then again, being conscientious of the engineering side of production probably shouldn't be expected of most people..

Not a jab at you, just something I think needs to be brought up when people wonder why this platform is so hard to work with. I actually agree with you, but I think a reliable 250-300whp 86 would be perfect.

[JDKane527]

Interested to see if the Cosworth heat exchanger and Jackson Racing engine oil cooler can be mounted together at the front of the car or if custom brackets will be needed?

[Koa]

Originally Posted by Jyn

I was under the impression that the whole reason the 2.0 kit was pegged so low on the boost was for that very reason. IIRC, they even advise to upgrade internals if the owner wants to push the blower to 300bhp or above. To me, this shows a lot more consideration from Cosworth than many other F/I companies that seem to claim 16 psi on stock internals has no issue longevity-wise.



People always have their retrospect goggles on when they mention things like old LSx, 2JZ, RB26, etc. platforms that can be pushed well beyond their limits, forgetting that back then, emissions and regulations were nowhere near what they are today. The fact that our cars can do what they do at the price point they're at with the regulations in place is astounding to me. Then again, being conscientious of the engineering side of production probably shouldn't be expected of most people..

Not a jab at you, just something I think needs to be brought up when people wonder why this platform is so hard to work with. I actually agree with you, but I think a reliable 250-300whp 86 would be perfect.

I don't know what retrospect goggles mean to my statement about our engine's inability to handle boost well stock. Compression doesn't have anything to do with regulations or emissions..

I also stated that we must look at not only the engine, but the other components of the drivetrain (i.e clutch, transmission, driveshaft, axle, rear diff, etc) to determine how any given system can accept FI with an acceptable measure of reliability and safety.

[Koa]

Here's a great discussion on compression and boost by a manufacturer some regard as well versed in FI applications!

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...tio_with_boost

[Model Citizen]

Originally Posted by Jyn

After my last F/I car, the only thing holding me back from boosting the FR-S is longevity. There's a reason you see so many people listing their cars FS a few months after they've boosted it.

a lot of people bought a car based on hype/emotions despite it not fitting their needs for a car.

boost doesn't fix that.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Jyn

People always have their retrospect goggles on when they mention things like old LSx, 2JZ, RB26, etc. platforms that can be pushed well beyond their limits, forgetting that back then, emissions and regulations were nowhere near what they are today.

Exactly. Don't forget the economics of trade and raw material costs. That's why the only response to these people is you and your parents effed up the world and now we can't have nice things. Thanks a lot, now go piss off.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by abraxis

Exactly. Don't forget the economics of trade and raw material costs. That's why the only response to these people is you and your parents effed up the world and now we can't have nice things. Thanks a lot, now go piss off.

You're onto something about disparity between engine manufacturing costs of then and now.

However the person you're quoting simply mis-read or mis-interpreted my point that the FA20 engine, as it sits, is not suited well for boost since it is high compression of 12.5:1 (being N/A, this is typical).

That has little to nothing to do with emissions and regulations

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Jyn

There's a reason you see so many people listing their cars FS a few months after they've boosted it.

Generalization.

People sell their FI projects for many reasons:

1. They thought it would be faster than what they actually got
2. They thought it would totally transform the car
3. They got bored with it because it is still a cheap sports car
4. They got bored with it because after the FI kit the project has reached its climax
5. They were disappointed in the initial product and thought spending 5 grand on a FI kit would satisfy them enough when in actuality that money would have been better spent on a new car that actually satisfies them
6. They just want a new/better car

I have never experienced anyone saying they are selling their car after putting a FI kit on because they think the motor wont last. Those people that fear the motor blowing would just take the FI kit off or not put it on in the first place.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Koa

You're onto something about disparity between engine manufacturing costs of then and now.

However the person you're quoting simply mis-read or mis-interpreted my point that the FA20 engine, as it sits, is not suited well for boost since it is high compression of 12.5:1 (being N/A, this is typical).

That has little to nothing to do with emissions and regulations

Yes it is not suited for high boost on pump gas. You adjust boost and ignition timing accordingly to keep knock at bay. If you are running a good safe tune there is no reason to avoid boost on this motor. A higher compressing motor will yield more power per psi so just keep your expectations realistic and run a safe tune / lower boost.

@mkivsoopra 's and my turbo motors running at 6-7 psi (275 whp) hard at the tracks here are running strong. @CSG Mike 's JRSC'd motor has been pushed harder than anyone's FI setup. @ImperiousRex 's turbo motor has been pushed hard through time attack competitions and is holding up great. All of these people understand the concept of knock and how it destroys engines and so they run the appropriate tunes, psi levels and fuel octane to keep things safe for high performance duty.

For a street car on pump gas you need to keep expectations realistic of what the motor, with low octane, can do. If you just need to run 30 psi of boost and make 300+ whp on 91 octane safely then look elsewhere for a low CR motor.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Yes it is not suited for high boost on pump gas. You adjust boost and ignition timing accordingly to keep knock at bay. If you are running a good safe tune there is no reason to avoid boost on this motor. A higher compressing motor will yield more power per psi so just keep your expectations realistic and run a safe tune / lower boost.

@mkivsoopra 's and my turbo motors running at 6-7 psi (275 whp) hard at the tracks here are running strong. @CSG Mike 's JRSC'd motor has been pushed harder than anyone's FI setup. @ImperiousRex 's turbo motor has been pushed hard through time attack competitions and is holding up great. All of these people understand the concept of knock and how it destroys engines and so they run the appropriate tunes, psi levels and fuel octane to keep things safe for high performance duty.

For a street car on pump gas you need to keep expectations realistic of what the motor, with low octane, can do. If you just need to run 30 psi of boost and make 300+ whp on 91 octane safely then look elsewhere for a low CR motor.

Yup, it's good to see these motors are being boosted and boosted properly. I myself am a commuter first and weekend warrior second. A high compression, low boost setup is ideal for me. I should have made my assertions clearer as to what amount of boost this engine can reasonably withstand and why the 12.5:1 compression ratio sucks for that sledgehammer, in-your-face type of boost most would associate with an all-out turbo rig.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Koa

Yup, it's good to see these motors are being boosted and boosted properly. I myself am a commuter first and weekend warrior second. A high compression, low boost setup is ideal for me. I should have made my assertions clearer as to what amount of boost this engine can reasonably withstand and why the 12.5:1 compression ratio sucks for that sledgehammer, in-your-face type of boost most would associate with an all-out turbo rig.

I'd still prefer slightly less compression... when I say I want lower compression, I'm thinking more along the lines of 11-11.5, not the 7-9 most people think. And this is because I want more boost, to ultimately make more power.

That being said, we haven't run into the limitations of 12.5:1 compression yet, so we won't be dropping in our lower compression engine until we do.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by Koa

However the person you're quoting simply mis-read or mis-interpreted my point that the FA20 engine, as it sits, is not suited well for boost since it is high compression of 12.5:1 (being N/A, this is typical).

Still, be cautious about over generalization about that kind of thing. Proper tuning and the right kind of equipment, low boost applications are reliable. Dont forget the F2xC was also an NA engine that accepted boost like a long lost brother, if a headgasket was applied more of a medium boost build could be attained.

Im wondering if that same philosophy and application would work here as well.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

Still, be cautious about over generalization about that kind of thing. Proper tuning and the right kind of equipment, low boost applications are reliable. Dont forget the F2xC was also an NA engine that accepted boost like a long lost brother, if a headgasket was applied more of a medium boost build could be attained.

Im wondering if that same philosophy and application would work here as well.

F2xC + headgasket = problems.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

F2xC + headgasket = problems.

Well yes, although I don't know enough about the F2xC to know why it would have caused problems. it was a stupidly low cost way to psudo change the CR. in any case, I'm just holding out the funds to swap Pistons and the works.