Direct Injector Failure Poll

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by l0aded

Can someone please clear my confusion about this issue? So if I am at idle and i slightly rev and my rev dips a little and comes back up is this an issue?

No, sounds like how engines work to me, the drive by wire system makes for a bit of lag in my opinion so this doesn't sound weird to me, it leans out a little bit before the ECU compensates and adds the fuel to up the revs. I could be wrong on this point, feel free to add corrections.

Originally Posted by l0aded

I also have an occasional "knock" when doing this maybe 1/5 times or so if I listen carefully. Does this mean for sure sure my DI has failed or could it just be a bad tune? (on Unichip). I have never had any backfiring or noticable knock besides when doing this at idle.

Unknown, could be tune, could be perfectly fine, could be a blown seal.

Originally Posted by l0aded

Should I take off my tune and see the dealer?

Yes, that is if the knock remains on the stock tune, if it goes away on the stock tune then you've found your problem.

:happy0180:

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by l0aded

Can someone please clear my confusion about this issue? So if I am at idle and i slightly rev and my rev dips a little and comes back up is this an issue? I also have an occasional "knock" when doing this maybe 1/5 times or so if I listen carefully. Does this mean for sure sure my DI has failed or could it just be a bad tune? (on Unichip). I have never had any backfiring or noticable knock besides when doing this at idle.

Should I take off my tune and see the dealer?

By Stu of gt86ownersclub.co.uk

There's so much misinformation and paranoia floating around about this issue. The American forum has gone banzai about it without truly understanding the problem. I appreciate dealerships there are just as bad as here though with a) acknowledging a problem, b) understanding it and c) fixing it successfully (without taking your car on a 200+ mile jolly).

The issue is transient det damaging the seals. It's not when you lift the throttle the problem occurs, it's when you go back on it quickly. This is called "tip-in". When you rapidly change the throttle angle, you need "tip-in fuel" and "tip-in spark". Because sensors (and the ecu) takes a few milliseconds to react to these changes, you have to put in predictive tables which ensure the engine gets the right amount of fuel and spark during those big-change transient conditions.

Now our engines, with calibrations 700, and A00 DO have transient spark tables, however for some reason (which we will never understand/find out), the transient spark table was disabled above 5200rpm. This means that if you change gear rapidly above this engine speed you are able to 'get ahead' of the ECU and get a little crack of tip-in det/knock. This isn't usually dangerous, but it appears the seals used on the direct injectors (of which I am confident are perfectly up to the job) do not appreciate the det and over time wear and cause a leak and eventually total seal/injector failure requiring replacement.

The fix in calibration A01 is to move the upper bound remit of the transient spark table from 5200 rpm to 10000rpm (e.g. always) and the actual table itself has been populated with some meaningful spark angles so it does its job up top now its actually activated.

Here's a copy of the stock 700/A00 transient spark table, as you can see it's not doing any retarding over 4000rpm:



Here's a copy (leeched from ft86club) of the Toyota docs on the issue:

[denkigrve]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

By Stu of gt86ownersclub.co.uk

Thank you for re-posting this. I wish more people would read this and stop over-reacting about it. The problem is that it's a very specific condition. Should it be changed or addressed? Yes. Will most people get the same types of wear? Not likely.

[l0aded]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

By Stu of gt86ownersclub.co.uk

I see, thanks for this. Does this mean all models made before the date of this document and possibly after will eventually need a TSB to fix the detonation?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by denkigrve

Thank you for re-posting this. I wish more people would read this and stop over-reacting about it. The problem is that it's a very specific condition. Should it be changed or addressed? Yes. Will most people get the same types of wear? Not likely.

Have you ever redlined your car? If so, you're at risk.

[denkigrve]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Have you ever redlined your car? If so, you're at risk.

Multiple times. My light is set at 7k so that I'll do the shift slightly before or just as it hits redline. 85% of my time on the track at Laguna was spent above 5k RPMs. I dunno, I'm still thinking there is a parts supplier thing happening since we're not hearing about this out of Japan yet, nor from a majority of the owners of the car.

I think an enterprising third party could make some real money from this by making some SUPER seals for the DIs.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by denkigrve

Multiple times. My light is set at 7k so that I'll do the shift slightly before or just as it hits redline. 85% of my time on the track at Laguna was spent above 5k RPMs. I dunno, I'm still thinking there is a parts supplier thing happening since we're not hearing about this out of Japan yet, nor from a majority of the owners of the car.

I think an enterprising third party could make some real money from this by making some SUPER seals for the DIs.

I beg to differ. Japan is experiencing it just as much.

http://arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/Date/20130604/
http://arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/Date/20130609/

Detonation is detonation. If the seals don't give, something else will.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I beg to differ. Japan is experiencing it just as much.

http://arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/Date/20130604/
http://arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/Date/20130609/

Detonation is detonation. If the seals don't give, something else will.

Awesome find Mike!

I really can't see Toyota/Subaru ignoring this.

[denkigrve]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I beg to differ. Japan is experiencing it just as much.

http://arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/Date/20130604/
http://arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/Date/20130609/

Detonation is detonation. If the seals don't give, something else will.

Still pretty small with only a few posts, but thank you for posting that. I hadn't seen anything out of Japan yet. The Japanese will be at more direct with Toyota/Subaru than most americans will. At this point Toyota/Subaru have to be looking into this. There are enough threads, and enough information. It's not going to just "go away" either, but I think we only know so much. The majority of cars seeing this are seeing these failures on heavy usage conditions. So we don't know how it's going to present itself to the overall population.

Do you know when your car was manufactured? When did you pick yours up? There was no talk of this until this year, and the cars have been out for a year at this point. So I'm wondering if there was a materials change somewhere along the line or they added another parts supplier that could be supplying them with less than adequate parts.

Either way, I have a feeling that more than just the South African TSB is going to come out soon. In May it' marks the end of the first few cars 2 year warranties. I'm likely going to extend mine through Toyota if this isn't ironed out by then, but I don't think they'd let something like this just go on a car that's supposed to be "the best of the best."

Moto also seems to have lots of connections with Toyota and Tada. I'm curious if anyone has talked to him to see if they can provide any feedback, or will get some extra movement on this. The last thing both companies want is the paranoia that's forming on the forums from suddenly de-railing the train these cars have created for the market.

They also don't want the legacy of this car to match that of the Starion. Everyone laughs at that cars motor due to the poor materials choice for the head.

Originally Posted by ayau

Awesome find Mike!

I really can't see Toyota/Subaru ignoring this.

I agree. There's a lot of noise, and enough people are concerned about it. What needs to happen is that it's going to need to actually happen to more and more cars for the companies to take action. They're surprisingly slow when it comes to making changes.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by denkigrve

I agree. There's a lot of noise, and enough people are concerned about it. What needs to happen is that it's going to need to actually happen to more and more cars for the companies to take action. They're surprisingly slow when it comes to making changes.

I'm going to guess they're still testing to confirm that this is the root cause. I can't imagine it's very easy to announce a worldwide TSB in a matter of weeks/months. This isn't something small like some tail light condensation.

[denkigrve]

Originally Posted by ayau

I'm going to guess they're still testing to confirm that this is the root cause. I can't imagine it's very easy to announce a worldwide TSB in a matter of weeks/months. This isn't something small like some tail light condensation.

Yeah this one's a bit more complicated. I'm imagining it'll be something like "Update the ECU when cars come in for ANY service or check up." Then only roll out as a mass communication if it escalates any further. There is a lot of CYA that will be done to prevent this from looking like a major recall since that could damage the brand.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by denkigrve

Still pretty small with only a few posts, but thank you for posting that. I hadn't seen anything out of Japan yet. The Japanese will be at more direct with Toyota/Subaru than most americans will. At this point Toyota/Subaru have to be looking into this. There are enough threads, and enough information. It's not going to just "go away" either, but I think we only know so much. The majority of cars seeing this are seeing these failures on heavy usage conditions. So we don't know how it's going to present itself to the overall population.

The Japanese are well aware of this issue. Just because they don't post here doesn't mean they're not experiencing it.

Originally Posted by denkigrve

Do you know when your car was manufactured? When did you pick yours up? There was no talk of this until this year, and the cars have been out for a year at this point. So I'm wondering if there was a materials change somewhere along the line or they added another parts supplier that could be supplying them with less than adequate parts.

June 2012.

2nd engine was Sept 2012

The problem was present on our first engine, but we figured it was a fluke, since we hadn't heard of the problem at that point. Turns out the Japanese and South Africans were already experiencing it.

Originally Posted by denkigrve

Either way, I have a feeling that more than just the South African TSB is going to come out soon. In May it' marks the end of the first few cars 2 year warranties. I'm likely going to extend mine through Toyota if this isn't ironed out by then, but I don't think they'd let something like this just go on a car that's supposed to be "the best of the best."

Moto also seems to have lots of connections with Toyota and Tada. I'm curious if anyone has talked to him to see if they can provide any feedback, or will get some extra movement on this. The last thing both companies want is the paranoia that's forming on the forums from suddenly de-railing the train these cars have created for the market.

He's not at liberty to comment, so he simply won't comment on the issue, and that's all I can say, since I don't want to put words in their mouths.

Originally Posted by denkigrve

They also don't want the legacy of this car to match that of the Starion. Everyone laughs at that cars motor due to the poor materials choice for the head.

I agree. There's a lot of noise, and enough people are concerned about it. What needs to happen is that it's going to need to actually happen to more and more cars for the companies to take action. They're surprisingly slow when it comes to making changes.

Totally agree. This problem WILL manifest eventually in ANY car that even occasionally sees redline.

[Dodzilla]

Anybody have a screenshot of the updated transient ignition retard table?

[denkigrve]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The Japanese are well aware of this issue. Just because they don't post here doesn't mean they're not experiencing it.

I figured this would be on their various autoblogs. There are a metric ton of autoblogs in Japan that tuners/owners run, and this is precisely the thing that would end up on those. I guess no-one has been looking since the problem wasn't as prevalent here in the US.

June 2013.

2nd engine was Sept 2013

Were those supposed to be 2012? That might shoot my materials idea out of the window.