F/I Blowing motors facts

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rosol16

If I were to want to go FI and be safe I assume I should go forged rods and pistons with a 9:1 or 10:1 compression and I should then be relatively safe with 400whp+?

If it allows you to get closer to MBT or achieve MBT, then most likely, yes.

Consult with your builder and tuner, to see if it's appropriate for your specific setup.

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by totopo

Can someone explain to me the animosity? why is everyone so instinctively butt-hurt? It's not like there is anything that shocking presented? can someone, instead of snarky comments, use words and explain why they are so offended?

Maybe it's because people have this wrong concept of mechanical failure where there is this magical HP number, where everything under it is hunky-dory safe, and everything over is immediately OMGWTF it's going to fall apart and brake. That's not how the world works, unless you are going to ridiculousness on either side. Ignore the shape of the curve, and the actual values, but the survival curve based on HP with stock internals assuming you don't have a retarded tune should look something like:



Note that this is % surviving. So are there 300whp engines that survive longer than stock engines? Most likely! Since up to whatever time point, it's not 100% failure, where as some stock engines start failing at low miles. Are there 500 whp engines that will survive longer than 350hp? sure. But I don't think it's necessarily economically wise to expect a 300hp engine to last 100,000 miles...

So the real question that only people with big pockets like subaru or maybe the big tuners know, is what the actual shape is, and what are the components that brake, in order of likelyhood.

So if I understand properly, since FRS Justin has an n greater than 1, he believes in his personal experience, that it is the rods that break first, and if I understand him properly, he believes that the failure rate past 300-325 whp is uncomfortably high for his personal values.

If you are willing to take the risk and boost to 500whp, so be it, but I don't understand why you would be mad if someone told you that your engine PROBABLY will fail more quickly. And when it blows, don't assume it's the tune and would have been perfectly safe with a different tune.

There is a simple understanding that any engine modified outside of OE specifications may have a failure. Anyone arguing to the contrary is just being silly -- but a whole rant about "your boosted motor will blow up at 300+" that goes on for 7+ pages... is just wow. We know the limits and discuss them with our customers on all the platforms we work on. After that it's a simple informed and conscious decision we all make.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by totopo

Can someone explain to me the animosity? why is everyone so instinctively butt-hurt? It's not like there is anything that shocking presented? can someone, instead of snarky comments, use words and explain why they are so offended?

Maybe it's because people have this wrong concept of mechanical failure where there is this magical HP number, where everything under it is hunky-dory safe, and everything over is immediately OMGWTF it's going to fall apart and brake. That's not how the world works, unless you are going to ridiculousness on either side. Ignore the shape of the curve, and the actual values, but the survival curve based on HP with stock internals assuming you don't have a retarded tune should look something like:



Note that this is % surviving. So are there 300whp engines that survive longer than stock engines? Most likely! Since up to whatever time point, it's not 100% failure, where as some stock engines start failing at low miles. Are there 500 whp engines that will survive longer than 350hp? sure. But I don't think it's necessarily economically wise to plan for a 300hp engine lasting 100,000 miles...

So the real question that only people with big pockets like subaru or maybe the big tuners know, is what the actual shape is at what hp level, and what are the components that brake, in order of likelyhood.

So if I understand properly, since FRS Justin has an n greater than 1, he believes in his personal experience, that it is the rods that break first, and if I understand him properly, he believes that the failure rate past 300-325 whp is uncomfortably high for his personal values.

If you are willing to take the risk and boost to 500whp, so be it, but I don't understand why you would be mad if someone told you that your engine PROBABLY will fail more quickly. And when it blows, don't assume it's the tune and would have been perfectly safe with a different tune.

Spot on thank you

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by VitViper

There is a simple understanding that any engine modified outside of OE specifications may have a failure. Anyone arguing to the contrary is just being silly -- but a whole rant about "your boosted motor will blow up at 300+" that goes on for 7+ pages... is just wow. We know the limits and discuss them with our customers on all the platforms we work on. After that it's a simple informed and conscious decision we all make.

I read your 450hp thread and you said you were aware of the risk and were prepared for it which is wise. It seams to be the problem of the non believers that it will live forever that have the most to say.


( by the way I saw the Honda you tuned kicking serious ass at the track. Full beast mode)


AND PUT UP A VIDEO WITHOUT YOUR TRACTION CONTROL ON. FROM A ROLL IS FINE!!!! Please

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

AND PUT UP A VIDEO WITHOUT YOUR TRACTION CONTROL ON. FROM A ROLL IS FINE!!!! Please

I don't need to turn it on or off... The traction control only engages when I'm at the limit of the tire and keeps the vehicle at steady acceleration... at the limit of the tire. Wheel spin really isn't all that cool.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by VitViper

Do you comprehend the difference between bogging and launch control? Do you understand what true launch control is?

Here's a hint: the engine RPM never went down (IE: bogging).



Boost control alone will never give you optimal acceleration when launching a vehicle, you will either have not enough slip, or too much slip (riding the rev limiter, must be your version of launch control).

By your definition the engineers are MoTeC are retarded and got it all wrong?

Or maybe in your attempt at a cute retort you made it apparent how little you actually understand and instead how truly ignorant you really are. What are you, 12?

I think your a little behind the times on new technology that is available so slow your old school roll. May I suggest you look at AMS boost controllers then you will understand and be able to offer your clients cutting edge technology and better results. your launch was crap period if that's what you think gets it done you should hang it up your tune is far from optimized far far from it its not a Honda

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by VitViper

I don't need to turn it on or off... The traction control only engages when I'm at the limit of the tire and keeps the vehicle at steady acceleration... at the limit of the tire. Wheel spin really isn't all that cool.

then your traction control isn't working because you can plainly see and hear when it catches traction.


I thought you like wheel spin using launch control on stock tires smh

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

I think your a little behind the times on new technology that is available so slow your old school roll. May I suggest you look at AMS boost controllers then you will understand and be able to offer your clients cutting edge technology and better results. your launch was crap period if that's what you think gets it done you should hang it up your tune is far from optimized far far from it its not a Honda

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Still waiting to see that 300hp N/A motor you know about

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

Still waiting to see that 300hp N/A motor you know about

Still waiting to see all those records you hold.

Not sure what I need to prove, it should be pretty obvious to you if you really have experience building engines, that 300hp NA on a bottom end is not out of the question at all.

Hell, I'd bet it could be done with just fuel and nitrous.

[FRS Justin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Still waiting to see all those records you hold.

Not sure what I need to prove, it should be pretty obvious to you if you really have experience building engines, that 300hp NA on a bottom end is not out of the question at all.

Hell, I'd bet it could be done with just fuel and nitrous.

Records are on this forum


we already schooled you that nitrous is not N/A AND to hit 300hp on a 2.0 fa20 stock bottom end N/A is not possible





But I did see you drifting a frs through a pretty sharp off camber which takes some skill. That was impressive I must admit. So stop screwing around and get to the front of the pack.......




edit: I was wrong you can drive and I will say it right here I was wrong you could be a front runner

[CSG Mike]

"Naturally Aspirated" means no enhancements to the induction system. The engine draws ambient air using nothing but the good old vacuum the designer chose to grace it with. The key here is that the manifold never gets into positive pressure ranges.

"Forced Induction" means pressurized air is fed to the engine using an external compressor, typically either supercharged or turbocharged, but I suppose it could include compressed air sources. The key here is that the manifold operates at positive pressures.

Nitrous Oxide is really a "combustion enhancer". It doesn't raise the pressure in the manifold above ambient. N2O replaces normal air, which is only about 20% Oxygen, with a gas that has about 35% Oxygen. In addition, since it comes out of the bottle *wicked cold*, it's quite a bit denser than typical ambient air (I think about 50% denser). The result gives you a substantial amount of additional Oxygen in the charge air, but because it's not delivered to the cylinders in pressurized form it doesn't qualify as forced induction.

Ram air is grey area.

Nitrous, while adding oxygen content, does not stop the engine from naturally sucking in the air itself.

Forced induction would imply that the pressure inside the manifold is above atmospheric, due to something forcing air into the engine, causing it to imbibe more air than it can on its own.

Since you're a drag racer, I can see why you would consider Nitrous FI; it's not "all motor". While excluded from "all motor", it's still not forcing a positive pressure into the manifold, the engine is still aspirating on its own.

[VitViper]

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

I think your a little behind the times on new technology that is available so slow your old school roll. May I suggest you look at AMS boost controllers then you will understand and be able to offer your clients cutting edge technology and better results. your launch was crap period if that's what you think gets it done you should hang it up your tune is far from optimized far far from it its not a Honda

I'm familiar with AMS and their BCS systems. However, are you familiar with MoTeC? Better yet, the M1 series ECU's and their capabilities? The boost control capabilities of the M1 ECU surpass anything you can do with the AMS to such a level that the AMS system is "garbage" and no one with an M1 wants to look at that "trash". Let alone the ability to program your own custom boost control logic in on top of what is already available. Add to that the fact it's a premiere engine management system with unparalleled capabilities in the market....

And then there's launch control. And traction control. Which are not the same thing as boost control. You cannot achieve optimal acceleration using simply boost control. It'll never happen -- I'm not going to explain to you why. Why don't you just try it yourself.

So... tell me again why I care about AMS's boost control system?

Originally Posted by FRS Justin

then your traction control isn't working because you can plainly see and hear when it catches traction.


I thought you like wheel spin using launch control on stock tires smh

Really, you can? Because the datalogs clearly show the ECU holding the desired amount of slip to achieve optimal acceleration from a stop throughout that whole video. But please, do continue, school me on my own car and my own EMS.

Or just continue to display this level of ignorance, it is quite amusing, to say the least, lol.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Ram air is grey area.

Nitrous, while adding oxygen content, does not stop the engine from naturally sucking in the air itself.

Forced induction would imply that the pressure inside the manifold is above atmospheric, due to something forcing air into the engine, causing it to imbibe more air than it can on its own.

Since you're a drag racer, I can see why you would consider Nitrous FI; it's not "all motor". While excluded from "all motor", it's still not forcing a positive pressure into the manifold, the engine is still aspirating on its own.

If you say nitrous is na, then yes, a 300hp fa20 on nitrous would need beefy internals just as much as a 300hp fi motor because the cylinders are seeing the same pressures.

The reason that na doesn't need as strong internals as fi is because you are normally limited by the amount of air that you pull in. You can make it as efficient as you want and there is still a max bmep that you cannot surpass. but if you are saying nitrous counts, nitrous causes pretty insane cylinder pressures, so the end effect is the same as fi. You get hp with more air instead of more revs.

Edit: of course that is assuming you are using nitrous ALL THE TIME. The fact that it is just sporadic makes it like a scramble button on a fi. It would be like if you normally ran super low boost then periodically ran short stint at high boost. Is the failure rate acceptable with that usage? Who knows