2nd gear synchro FIX- MT owners read this thread

[Esoteric]

Originally Posted by gmookher

how many have actually ever rebuilt a manual tranny here in this thread? LOL...
...Guys, its JUST another 75w-80 oil.

Gmookher, lets thank you for your contribution to the thread and forum. I understand your frustration when your trying to be helpful and your trying to explain things by text. Its tough!

The Pentosin is a premium synthetic oil chosen by one of the most respected performance automakers in the world, BMW. We can call it above average from it's track record.

More discussion to chat about:
BG Syncroshift II
Syncroshift II is synthetic. Regular "BG syncroshift" is mineral oil and is said to be nearly identical or identical to Penzoil Snyncromesh.
As said, the BG SSII its very similar viscosity wise to Pentosin. It has had wonderful results for many many problem trans owners who experience similarly "grinding" transmissions.
Transmission building experts, and racers from experience will tell you that the mineral version Syncroshift/ Pennzoil Syncromesh doesn't have the long life and toughness of some oils when racing (Not everyone here is racing/tracking), but Syncroshift II is a product that is more robust and fixes the film strength issue under high stress. Also, synthetic flows better cold. Win/Win

Why do I use the MT-85 in our shop car?
With elevated temps found on the track, oil viscosity drops. The hotter, the thinner. MT-85 is by Redline, who countless racers win with and on the track- thats the ultimate test right there. They are also very helpful to find tech information by email or phone.
This matched perfectly for us during many hot track days here in the north and south east. We used a temp gun to monitor temps (a gap measure until we have data logging) The hotter than average temps drop the viscosity into the ideal range that we wanted to see and have also shifted far better on the street at all temps than the factory fill. Very happy with it. Now that temps are in the 30F range (damn cold) an even thinner oil would be a better match.


Something else...
Royal Purple Syncromax
I have used this oil for 7 years in my E30 M3 with terrific results. The E30 M3 is know to be a very tough, notchy trans.
It took years and years to convert people on the E30 M3 forum that these types of "light" oils can work well and that Royal Purple was a great match for the BMW trans, but people come around. I should have posted a table like below... lol There is data for you
Syncromax oil is similar to the Pentosin in viscosity, and RP states "Synchromax is recommended for manual transmissions that specify an automatic transmission fluid or motor oil."
I think we can say with its wide availability, its well worth trying for many of the FRS/BRZ owners out there.

--------------


Commonly available lightweight synthetic manual transmission oils
Worth trying in your FR-S/BRZ based on the above findings of our members...
- Redline MTL ------------------ (CST@100c 10.6)
- BG Syncroshift II ------------ (CST@100c 8.19) [as tested by blackstone]
- Pentosyn MTF-2 -------------- (CST@100c 7.7)
- Royal Purple Syncromax ---- (CST@100c 7.7)
- Joe Gibbs MTF ---------------- (CST@100c 9.2)
- AMSOIL MTF ------------------ (CST@100c 9.7)


Other oils, thicker and likely not as effective for grinds (especially in cold temps):

Specialty "mid weight":
-Redline MT-85

"Standard weight" 75w-90 (ironically, the most common gear oil weight):
-Redline MT-90
-Redline Lightweight Shockproof (not likely needed by any common FRS/BRZ owner)
-Redline 75w-90NS
-Motul Gear 300

AMSOIL Severe Gear and Long Life seem too thick, and with the wrong additives to recommend for this trans

*(The above is simply a list of products that have wide distribution, there are of course some that are worthy that have been left out)*

[BMWDavid]

I just ordered some Pentosin MTF-2. Really looking forward to feeling the improvement others have experienced changing to this lube.

Question for gmookher: Is there any negative with the Pentosin as things get hot? By that I mean in high ambient temps (85*-95* F) is there any change in the feel? I'm assuming even during hot weather this lube will fit the bill.

[gmookher]

Rp isnt a true gl4.fail. This aint a mopar funny car

Why use bg when there's pentosin? Bg fail. Unless you have a good reason to like the lack of boron moly the bg goes nice in a borg warner. Not here. Youre off. I like bg. Not here tho.

You can put mt 85 its nowhere as loaded with ep as pento. Redlines crap.
Amsoil wont work nor will the Gibbs. Fail. Youre off. Too thick.

Funny esoteric now you sound like me..., its not as simple as u make it...but your chart is wrong please edit to only include cst 7.x

Only one fluid in my car.
Just drove to los Angeles.
I track my m3, 335, and brz on pentosin.in phx. Triple digit heat

Im here in cali to drop my car off for dyno tuning...what fluid do i trust?

[Future]

Originally Posted by BMWDavid

I just ordered some Pentosin MTF-2. Really looking forward to feeling the improvement others have experienced changing to this lube.

Question for gmookher: Is there any negative with the Pentosin as things get hot? By that I mean in high ambient temps (85*-95* F) is there any change in the feel? I'm assuming even during hot weather this lube will fit the bill.

x2 to everything he said. Hot and track days?

[ft86Fan]

gmookher, its great that you love the Pentosin and its working so well for you and you are sure doing your best to convince us but my biggest concern is that if we ever need warranty work on the tranny and they find out that we are using a 75w-80 instead of the specified 75w-90 oil they might deny service.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by ft86Fan

gmookher, its great that you love the Pentosin and its working so well for you and you are sure doing your best to convince us but my biggest concern is that if we ever need warranty work on the tranny and they find out that we are using a 75w-80 instead of the specified 75w-90 oil they might deny service.

I don't think they would ship out the oil to test its viscosity. I could be wrong, I just think it's highly unlikely.

[ft86Fan]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I don't think they would ship out the oil to test its viscosity. I could be wrong, I just think it's highly unlikely.

I'm sure you are right but they are bound to ask and I'll have to lie. I'm not much of a liar

[serialk11r]

@Esoteric From what I'm reading, you seem to be saying that these thinner transmission oils have some kind of benefit? Molakule on BITOG wrote something like he doesn't suggest people use oils in the 7cSt @ 100C range for transmissions, and that the friction modifiers are the most important when it comes to shift performance, not viscosity. Most of the transmission oils seem to be in the 9cSt range, and there's only a handful of 7-8cSt oils but some people swear by Royal Purple and BMW MTF...

[Esoteric]

Originally Posted by gmookher

Rp isnt a true gl4. fail.

I'm interested in this, can you explain this "not a true GL4" further? I know a tribologist who worked at RL and now works at another specialty oil company, I can ask him whatever we want and get a truthful answer
I think you must be referring to the additive package? Anyway, I'm interested to hear.

Originally Posted by gmookher

Why use bg when there's pentosin?

-- People are price conscious (to a fault) better we help them now, maybe we can save people by going over all their options. There are other options. Hell, I even sell the Pentosin but I don't want to say "there is only one oil you must use!". Are you going by the track record of BG SS1 or the boron content? of BG SSII?

Originally Posted by gmookher

Funny esoteric now you sound like me..., its not as simple as u make it...but your chart is wrong please edit to only include cst 7.x

--What's wrong?
That list is a list of the 7 centistoke range fluid, as well as other fluid for comparison. I'm not sure what needs to be changed to illustrate more than what each fluid is in relationship to viscosity.

[Esoteric]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

@Esoteric From what I'm reading, you seem to be saying that these thinner transmission oils have some kind of benefit?...

Molakule on BITOG wrote something like he doesn't suggest people use oils in the 7cSt @ 100C range for transmissions, and that the friction modifiers are the most important when it comes to shift performance, not viscosity. Most of the transmission oils seem to be in the 9cSt range, and there's only a handful of 7-8cSt oils but some people swear by Royal Purple and BMW MTF...

Glad you asked!!!


-What I am showing is what oils fall into what viscosity range at 100*C. This is to offer data so we can discuss things based on viscosity. Additive packages are not something oil companies will disclose nor will we be able to directly relate the info we can gather to direct results. Its just not as simple. : \

-Yes, additive packages have a very large impact on synchronizer performance. I don't rebuild transmissions myself, but the machinists at the shop do from time to time. At my pervious job I offered Drenth, Samsonas, and Quaife race gear boxes. I have have asked many industry experts about such topics as my job is to maintain customers race cars when not developing our FT86 program

-Hence, I used an oil brand that has given me, and many others good results over the years; at a viscosity that works well at ambient temps from 50F-110F, and has the additive package, and viscosity I wished to see at the track. :happy0180:


The Pentosin works so well in the BMW (Getrag/ ZF), VW, Aisin and other transmissions... And has zillions of miles of hard use to back it up. If transmissions are going for 200k miles on the original fluid fill of Pentosin, its a good sign. Thats my take.

-I think what I am trying to say is that the FT86 likes a thinner oil than the 75w-90 GL3 in the manual.
-We have all had better results and my professional opinion based on experience and supporting facts are: this should not be detrimental to anything inside the transmission (and should benefit in all scenarios) that a switch to synthetic oil that is thiner oil than the factory fill with a superior additive package is recommended.


whew

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I don't think they would ship out the oil to test its viscosity. I could be wrong, I just think it's highly unlikely.

They will ask for receipts.

-Dennis

[2forme]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

They will ask for receipts.

-Dennis

Ok, then buy some oil of the "right" viscosity.

[bluesubie]

I guess it depends on the particular dealer and if anyone wants to fight it in case of denial of a warranty claim. The owner's manual probably says "Recommended" and not required.

Some will say the dealer has to prove that a problem developed due to the incorrect viscosity being used, but from examples that I've seen, the burden is usually on the car owner and they need deep pockets if they want to really fight it.

-Dennis

[Dezoris]

Considering half the dealers have probably never even seen a FR-S/BRZ in the shop, the last thing they are going to be doing is a taste test of the trans fluid. Most of the mechanics (no offense) are not enthusiasts. They are there to get as much shit done in the shortest amount of time.

Secondly whatever fluid you have in the car, any mechanical problem is going to get blamed on you anyway regardless of what fluid you use, point being switch to a fluid based on your climate and driving style that protects your gears appropriately.

The factory fill is nothing more than cheap motor oil.

Just swapped to Pent
Here is my impressions:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21818