namess vs AP crossover pipe?

[NOBROWS]

i got my nameless axle back today,i was highly impressed by the workmanship and quality of the product, it fit amazing compared to other systems ive installed before , cant wait til the headers are released so i can get them and down pipe

[krea.tion]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Probably best to base your opinion of each company themselves on their development threads instead of a "vs" thread. Vs threads almost never go over well.

I think the OP got info from both on why they believe their system is the right choice and that's what matters right now.

I would love to see the welds from inside the pipes though.. leaving the thread open just for that :P

Thats the thing, in the aftermarket industry there are TONS of companies with both quality products, good histories and good PR. Regardless of the quality of products sold by these vendors, I won't buy a product from a company that resorts to keyboard battle royales. There are plenty of equally good products from other companies to choose from.

[mike2100]

Originally Posted by krea.tion

Quality of welds is one thing but so is corporate showmanship and respect. You guys are both doing a serious disservice to your companies by doing this publicly. I know that I for one will not be buying from either of you.

I'd rather choose based on quality. It's not like you'd be buying blood diamonds.

Publicly is the best way. It forces transparency, and when is transparency a bad thing?

Nameless and Perrin have rejuvenated my interest in this hobby. 5 years ago I was buying parts for my car based on looks and sound alone. Now I have dyno graphs and design/manufacturing philosophies to compare. Greddy, HKS, Tanabe, Apexi all just don't have the same meaning they used to. New small business owners are figuring out what the customer wants and are delivering.

[NOBROWS]

Originally Posted by mike2100

I'd rather choose based on quality. It's not like you'd be buying blood diamonds.

Publicly is the best way. It forces transparency, and when is transparency a bad thing?

Nameless and Perrin have rejuvenated my interest in this hobby. 5 years ago I was buying parts for my car based on looks and sound alone. Now I have dyno graphs and design/manufacturing philosophies to compare. Greddy, HKS, Tanabe, Apexi all just don't have the same meaning they used to. New small business owners are figuring out what the customer wants and are delivering.

totally agree

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by krea.tion

Thats the thing, in the aftermarket industry there are TONS of companies with both quality products, good histories and good PR. Regardless of the quality of products sold by these vendors, I won't buy a product from a company that resorts to keyboard battle royales. There are plenty of equally good products from other companies to choose from.

That's fine Certainly it should be part of your decision, I would just suggest not limiting yourself ONLY to what's said in a comparison/"vs" arguement thread. After all, you can have a horrible product and just never say another bad about anything, doesn't make the product good though

I just think the development/design/dyno/etc threads just show you a better description of the products in question than this thread does and would be very informative to potential customers of either product.

[2pt5RS]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Forum before Vivid vs forum after Vivid?

Everyone wins when the worthless company that is vivid goes away.

[krea.tion]

Originally Posted by mike2100

I'd rather choose based on quality. It's not like you'd be buying blood diamonds.

Publicly is the best way. It forces transparency, and when is transparency a bad thing?

Nameless and Perrin have rejuvenated my interest in this hobby. 5 years ago I was buying parts for my car based on looks and sound alone. Now I have dyno graphs and design/manufacturing philosophies to compare. Greddy, HKS, Tanabe, Apexi all just don't have the same meaning they used to. New small business owners are figuring out what the customer wants and are delivering.

I agree with this, Mike. Definitely my #1 priority when choosing aftermarket parts is their quality and performance. I'm young, but I've been around the game long enough to see plently of these "I designed it, they copied it" remarks. Truth is, there are only so many ways to route piping under the existing structure so that modifications are not necessary. All I'm saying is that quality being equal, I'll choose Company A over Company B if something about B irks me. With parts like exhausts, good welds are dime a dozen, as is proper fitment thus you cannot bank on the success of your company based on quality alone.

[mike2100]

Originally Posted by krea.tion

I agree with this, Mike. Definitely my #1 priority when choosing aftermarket parts is their quality and performance. I'm young, but I've been around the game long enough to see plently of these "I designed it, they copied it" remarks. Truth is, there are only so many ways to route piping under the existing structure so that modifications are not necessary. All I'm saying is that quality being equal, I'll choose Company A over Company B if something about B irks me. With parts like exhausts, good welds are dime a dozen, as is proper fitment thus you cannot bank on the success of your company based on quality alone.

Ok then, quality + proven gains. With the other companies I named you may get quality but who knows what the gains are unless someone on the forum is nice enough to dyno before and after, with all other parts being stock.

[os86]

nameless all the way. I do appreciate very much all the r&d that is posted on the forum and the fact that our opinions are considered / welcomed.

[krea.tion]

Originally Posted by mike2100

Ok then, quality + proven gains. With the other companies I named you may get quality but who knows what the gains are unless someone on the forum is nice enough to dyno before and after, with all other parts being stock.

Are you talking about Japanese companies like HKS and Greddy? I think in cases like that you are mostly seeing a language barrier more than anything. There are proven gains with them too its just they cater more to the Japanese market and publish gains in Japanese magazines, forums and TV programs that we don't really get much exposure to here.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Vs threads almost never go over well.

Dave-ROR vs. Guff; I want to see it!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Dave-ROR vs. Guff; I want to see it!

Bah I'll win. :P

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Bah I'll win. :P

ITR vs. Supra, ionno man. I vote Guff.

[Jason@Nameless]

Krea.tion,

You have an excellent point in regard to head butting on the forum and I do truly apologize for that behavior. How do you suggest we make a clear comparison of our quality product vs the competition? Do we just let people speak for us using their experience? Do we just speak about the details of our product line without direct comparison?

My experience is that our customer base and happy customers have less to lose than we do and often will take a thread like this over the top far worse than we would. It's a tough call for us. In this case I've said what I have to say about the quality of our parts. I can post some pics of the inside of our designs and the weld penetration tomorrow and discuss back purging vs use of flux, etc. at that point.

So what do we do? I'd like to hear how you would approach this if you were in our shoes. I'll take your suggestion to heart. In earnest.

J

[xjohnx]

I feel like vendors should be able to at least make comparisons of features that differentiate their product from the competition without too much drama.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by 2pt5RS

Everyone wins when the worthless company that is vivid goes away.

Yeah, because less in choice in product offerings is always a good thing....

[Jason@Nameless]

Originally Posted by krea.tion

Are you talking about Japanese companies like HKS and Greddy? I think in cases like that you are mostly seeing a language barrier more than anything. There are proven gains with them too its just they cater more to the Japanese market and publish gains in Japanese magazines, forums and TV programs that we don't really get much exposure to here.

If this is true, why is HKS still running the mushroom of death filters? I think you're also missing the inherent style element of those companies that also does not translate to the US market. HKS legamax muffler is baffled just like the factory system and retails for over a grand for an axleback. It looks and sounds nice but it isn't a top notch performance system in my opinion. Look at the JDM systems that use secondary circuits of equal diameter to the primary. That is a style and look consideration and does not make reasonable sense from an empirical engineering perspective. The drone factor on systems like these are also staggering.

It's not to say that there aren't brilliant product developments in those markets also, but that isn't the main factor behind these companies decision making behind their product development. And don't get me wrong, I have an immense respect for the R&D of many JDM companies like SARD (they specifically have some of the highest end silicone couplers I have ever seen in person, manufactured by Continental in Korea). But I don't necessarily feel the same way for the big names like G'Reddy and HKS.

ALPINA in the BMW market used to be one of the hardest core motorsport dev companies on earth, but now they are almost in pure badge engineering coast mode. I have photos of their B7 7er Twin Turbo front mount that would make you cringe. It's spool gun snot MIG welded. Things change. Business decisions change and driving factors in companies change. It's sad but true.

The Agency Power parts shown in the OP could be made by Cosworth and I probably would have said the same things if the parts looked like they do. If AP has changed their manufacturing or methodology, by all means they need to speak up and show us how.

J

[Jason@Nameless]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Yeah, because less in choice in product offerings is always a good thing....

The reality is that the high end usually is the company that goes away.

SPL stopped making their S13 control arms because of the overseas playground equipment knock offs. Hotshot flat out went under because of knock offs copying their unique swap headers. And do those knock off companies develop unique products? Show me ONE innovative and unique product from any of the companies I mentioned earlier. I've yet to see any.

I'm sorry for having passion about this. I feel strongly about it. And honestly I think all enthusiasts should. Might be a little heavy, but the reality is that if we want to continue developing superior products we are forced to point out differentiating factors. And we are the first company I have seen to refuse to sell components like the midpipe that make negligible power gains at increased weight. And what does that buy us? Nothing.

I'm not convinced that we shouldn't fight for our position here. Help me to see an alternative.

J

[Tomzilla]

Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless

The reality is that the high end usually is the company that goes away.

SPL stopped making their S13 control arms because of the overseas playground equipment knock offs. Hotshot flat out went under because of knock offs copying their unique swap headers. And do those knock off companies develop unique products? Show me ONE innovative and unique product from any of the companies I mentioned earlier. I've yet to see any.

I'm sorry for having passion about this. I feel strongly about it. And honestly I think all enthusiasts should. Might be a little heavy, but the reality is that if we want to continue developing superior products we are forced to point out differentiating factors. And we are the first company I have seen to refuse to sell components like the midpipe that make negligible power gains at increased weight. And what does that buy us? Nothing.

I'm not convinced that we shouldn't fight for our position here. Help me to see an alternative.

J

This guy.

I dig the passion and you will be receiving my money within this year.

[mechaghost]

Jason I applaud you for defending quality and having passion to improve the platform. For me passion is a big factor in deciding most everything pin life :-D

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless

The reality is that the high end usually is the company that goes away.

SPL stopped making their S13 control arms because of the overseas playground equipment knock offs. Hotshot flat out went under because of knock offs copying their unique swap headers. And do those knock off companies develop unique products? Show me ONE innovative and unique product from any of the companies I mentioned earlier. I've yet to see any.

I'm sorry for having passion about this. I feel strongly about it. And honestly I think all enthusiasts should. Might be a little heavy, but the reality is that if we want to continue developing superior products we are forced to point out differentiating factors. And we are the first company I have seen to refuse to sell components like the midpipe that make negligible power gains at increased weight. And what does that buy us? Nothing.

I'm not convinced that we shouldn't fight for our position here. Help me to see an alternative.

J

I agree with your position regarding knock-offs entirely. Knockoffs harm the aftermarket industry, and they are always the products that I avoid.

With that said, I have not seen definitive evidence regarding who came up with which idea/design and when, and I will reserve further judgment until those facts come to light.

I was merely pointing out that more choices is always better, otherwise all you have are monopolies or oligopolies, which inevitably harm the consumer.

[FRSpdDmn]

Jason, I am good friends with an excellent fabricator, but I am not a fabricator. I can understand your reasoning for believing so strongly in your product. I will be looking closely at your products when I get ready to buy power adders. I appreciate your methodology and craftsmanship.

I think what would be most appropriate would be to leave the names of other vendors out of your posts for your product. Maybe refer to them as "others" or "some vendors". Tout all of the benefits of YOUR product and give your consumers the tools to educate themselves. Leave it to us to go ask XYZ vendor if their product has the same features that you told us all about in yours.

Cheers,