2022 Nissan Z Coupe

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The 981 is indeed a *solid* luxury car

The Cayman is not a “luxury car,“ it’s a premium sportscar. There is a real difference. Nice cabin materials and a Porsche badge do not a luxury car make. A true luxury car prioritises comfort, soft and quiet ride, and all around refinement over handling and performance. Think Mercedes S Class Coupe or Bentley Continental GT.

Both weigh 3050 lb. in the real world. SOLID is in fact a *great* word for the car, as it felt to me like a bank-vault.

If you think 3,000lb is ‘solid’ (heavy or bank vault-like) for a modern car, I really think your expectations are a bit mismatched with the modern marketplace and modern safety demands. Instead of complaining that Caymans, 911s and 370Zs are too heavy, I think you should be shopping for a Lotus Elise, Exige, or perhaps an Alpine A110. Or get a nice MX-5 Miata and add FI. I think those ultra light cars will suit your preferences far more than expecting Nissan to suddenly deliver a Miata-light 400Z. It’s simply not happening, Nissan wouldn’t do it even if they had a lightweight RWD Miata-like chassis (which they don’t) and we are wasting our time even debating it.

Bank-vault solidity is great but at what cost? I miss the flimsy chassis of my 2300 lb. 255rwhp 240Z

It really sounds like you want an old, flimsy, lightweight car... so why not find a nice 240Z, mod it to your taste, and be happy? No modern manufacturer is going to build you an affordable 300HP+ modern sportscar with a ‘flimsy chassis’ and there is no way Nissan is going to replace their stiff, 330HP 370Z with a flimsy 250HP Z car that handles like a 50 year old car. Not happening, because it is bad for performance, bad for safety, bad for instrumented tests, and most sportscar buyers actually want a stiff chassis for improved handling, not a flimsy, flexy 1960s one than creaks, buckles and twists every time you apply some real throttle or take a corner hard.

The 60s and 70s are long gone. There is nothing wrong with preferring 50 year old cars if that’s your thing, but in that case, I think all new cars are going to disappoint you.

For modern, stock sportscars, again, you can pick two from a) powerful, b) lightweight, c) affordable. The next Z car is likely to be powerful and affordable. The V8 pony cars are for those who want something even more powerful and affordable, at the cost of more weight. The 86/BRZ and the MX-5 are your key options if you want lightweight and affordable. If you want powerful and lightweight you have to pay to play and step up into something like a Lotus Exige or Evora. Or get the ultimate, a T.50!

[Irace86.2.0]

What do you think they will add to the Z to justify a $10k+ increase in base price?

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What do you think they will add to the Z to justify a $10k+ increase in base price?

Pricing hasn’t been released, has it?

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

Why not? Rumored same power, roughly same price point, two seater, and both even have a 3.0 turbo.

Exactly. It’s quite odd to suggest the 400Z would compete with V8 pony cars, but not the Supra. In fact, when looking at the likely specs the Supra is obviously the closest competitor to a 400Z in terms of style, weight, intention, and power. It seems obvious the two will be one another’s closest competitors.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Red-86

The Cayman is not a “luxury car,“ it’s a premium sportscar. There is a real difference. Nice cabin materials and a Porsche badge do not a luxury car make. A true luxury car prioritises comfort, soft and quiet ride, and all around refinement over handling and performance. Think Mercedes S Class Coupe or Bentley Continental GT.



If you think 3,000lb is ‘solid’ (heavy or bank vault-like) for a modern car, I really think your expectations are a bit mismatched with the modern marketplace and modern safety demands. Instead of complaining that Caymans, 911s and 370Zs are too heavy, I think you should be shopping for a Lotus Elise, Exige, or perhaps an Alpine A110. Or get a nice MX-5 Miata and add FI. I think those ultra light cars will suit your preferences far more than expecting Nissan to suddenly deliver a Miata-light 400Z. It’s simply not happening, Nissan wouldn’t do it even if they had a lightweight RWD Miata-like chassis (which they don’t) and we are wasting our time even debating it.



It really sounds like you want an old, flimsy, lightweight car... so why not find a nice 240Z, mod it to your taste, and be happy? No modern manufacturer is going to build you an affordable 300HP+ modern sportscar with a ‘flimsy chassis’ and there is no way Nissan is going to replace their stiff, 330HP 370Z with a flimsy 250HP Z car that handles like a 50 year old car. Not happening, because it is bad for performance, bad for safety, bad for instrumented tests, and most sportscar buyers actually want a stiff chassis for improved handling, not a flimsy, flexy 1960s one than creaks, buckles and twists every time you apply some real throttle or take a corner hard.

The 60s and 70s are long gone. There is nothing wrong with preferring 50 year old cars if that’s your thing, but in that case, I think all new cars are going to disappoint you.

For modern, stock sportscars, again, you can pick two from a) powerful, b) lightweight, c) affordable. The next Z car is likely to be powerful and affordable. The V8 pony cars are for those who want something even more powerful and affordable, at the cost of more weight. The 86/BRZ and the MX-5 are your key options if you want lightweight and affordable. If you want powerful and lightweight you have to pay to play and step up into something like a Lotus Exige or Evora. Or get the ultimate, a T.50!

I see your definition of luxury. I’m fine calling it a premium car from a premium brand instead of a luxury car. It really doesn’t matter. The point was to talk about the build quality—not the creature comforts—because my initial point was that the Supra was a premium sports car.

Safety demands don’t make cars heavy. There are many sub 3000lb cars that are safe. The fact that the GR Yaris has AWD, safety standards and a turbocharged engine pushing 50%ish more power n torque at the same weight as the 86 suggests, there is more to it than what you are saying. Demand for larger vehicles and lack of shared, light RWD platforms limit making light weight sports cars. Most sports cars are compromises built from heavy sedans, or for the Porsche, they are premium, so there is extra cost and glut. Nothing wrong with continuing to ask for X even if they will be building Y.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Just because it is also in Infiniti models doesn’t mean Nissan will elevate the build quality to that of the Infiniti line.

Are you confusing build quality with prestige materials? Because I’ve ridden in a Q60, and I own a 370Z, and there is not the huge gulf in build quality suggested. The Z (in top trims) actually has a really nice interior, old fashioned now, but decent quality, with things like stitched leather around the central infortainment stack, which is often plastic in even some ‘premium’ cars.

I haven’t sat in one yet, but from the reviews of the new Supra’s interior I have seen, it certainly isn’t luxury and is not really much better than a 370Z. I’ve even seen and heard complaints about the leather in the seats wrinkling and sagging prematurely in the Supra - not the highest quality it seems. The Supra is modern in design and has up to date BMW iDrive infotainment, but infotainment tech doesn’t equal luxury, and the new Z should have up to date infotainment.

What they are more likely to do is cheap out on the car’s interior, body and features, but offer a decent powertrain like the Mustang or other pony cars.

The Z won’t be competing directly with the pony cars, it will be lighter but less powerful than the USDM V8s. The Supra will likely be the closest competitor in terms of weight, style (strictly two seat coupe), and performance.

People can cross shop a BRZ with a Corvette if they want, but that doesn’t mean the Corvette is influenced by the fact that the 86 has a manual, nor would they benchmark the performance or features with the 86.

Are you suggesting the new Z is as far apart from the Supra as an 86 is from a Corvette? Because that makes no sense. The Vette is in another league to the 86 in terms of power, performance and price. By contrast, the Z is likely to be camped out on the Supra’s lawn since the two are likely to be so close in terms of power and performance (and sadly, maybe even price).

Similarly, people can cross shop the Supra with the Z, but that doesn’t mean Toyota will be motivated to add a manual to the Supra just because the Z has a manual.

I agree actually, I don’t think Toyota will be pressured into offering a manual Supra. If they do offer one it was likely part of their plan all along. They may not even care so much about losing a few sales to a manual 400Z given that all these cars are pretty low volume, and even when manuals are offered, autos usually sell more anyway.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Pricing hasn’t been released, has it?

I was referring to the conversation I was having in which it was said by others that the price of the new Z would be starting at $40-50k like the “news” has said in their “leaks”. I think the price will be around $30-32k with a 300-350hp motor.

I was saying that if it is $40k+ then what will be added to the base 370Z to justify a $10k+ hike in price? The motor alone won’t do it. A refreshed body won’t do it, so where is the new value going to come from?

Originally Posted by Red-86

Exactly. It’s quite odd to suggest the 400Z would compete with V8 pony cars, but not the Supra. In fact, when looking at the likely specs the Supra is obviously the closest competitor to a 400Z in terms of style, weight, intention, and power. It seems obvious the two will be one another’s closest competitors.

My argument was that the Z was in the same class in quality and power/displacement as other pony cars compared to hot hatches and compacts below them. The Supra is in a premium class to me, which is why I said they aren’t direct competitors. When looking at the specs, a C8 may look like a competitor to a Ferrari, but they aren’t. While the spread is not as great, similarly the spread between the Z and Supra is enough to me to not make them direct competitors.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Are you confusing build quality with prestige materials? Because I’ve ridden in a Q60, and I own a 370Z, and there is not the huge gulf in build quality suggested. The Z (in top trims) actually has a really nice interior, old fashioned now, but decent quality, with things like stitched leather around the central infortainment stack, which is often plastic in even some ‘premium’ cars.

Like I said, on most premium vehicles, everything has been enhanced. Metal can be thicker and better quality. Glass can be thicker. There is more sound deadening. Aluminum replaces stamped steel. Hex bolts get replaced with Torx. Knobs are built with tighter tolerances. Lights slow illuminate instead of turning just on and off. The air that blows through the vents isn’t loud or harsh feeling. Nothing squeaks or rattles. Everything is upgraded at some level to be premium.

Even if you take a cheap luxury/premium car like an 2015 Audi Q3 versus the same gen Tiguan, they are both on the Golf chassis and share the same powertrain, but the suspension is different, there is extra bracing and suspension components, the headlights on the Audi is more premium, the vehicle is more solid and quieter, the interior is much improved, the speakers are better, the materials are much higher quality, etc. The price difference is justified more in the premium components than any performance, powertrain or typical features.

All I am claiming is that the Supra has the BMW build DNA that makes it a premium vehicle. I’m not saying it has all or any of those attributes that I listed above, but it has quality.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

What do you think they will add to the Z to justify a $10k+ increase in base price?

More power, bigger wheels, brakes, better tires, carbon fiber here and there, nicer information/speakers, sport seats, appearance package etc? Or what they do with the base Q60, LUXE and RED SPORT 400 trim? We'll just have to wait and see when and if this happens.

Originally Posted by Red-86

Pricing hasn’t been released, has it?

Nah, we're all just going back and forth on rumors and such.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I was referring to the conversation I was having in which it was said by others that the price of the new Z would be starting at $40-50k like the “news” has said in their “leaks”. I think the price will be around $30-32k with a 300-350hp motor.

I can’t see them going backward in terms of power, so I think the 370Z sets a bottom level, 330HP or so. The new Z has to offer more in our performance obsessed market. I have heard the rumours of two variants, a 300HP base and 400HP Nismo, based on the two Infiniti tunes for the VR, but I think it’s just as likely they will start with 350HP for the base, with 400HP+ for the Nismo.

I was saying that if it is $40k+ then what will be added to the base 370Z to justify a $10k+ hike in price? The motor alone won’t do it. A refreshed body won’t do it, so where is the new value going to come from?

Well, if it has a 350-400HP twin turbo 3.0 engine, that’s a starting point that justifies at least some price premium over the NA VQ. US$40k gets you only the 2.0 B48 Supra with 250HP. A Z with a 350HP V6TT for similar money would be a steal by comparison to the 4 cylinder Supra.

The Supra is in a premium class to me, which is why I said they aren’t direct competitors.

OK, we just disagree. There is nothing all that premium in the Supra to me. Just because it uses BMW parts, doesn’t equal premium... I’ve driven plenty of entry level 1 and 3 series BMWs (which is about the level of the Supra’s materials), and they are not that premium, they have cost cutting, plastic and cheap leather like other cars in their price bracket. Just having BMW DNA does not elevate the Supra. It’s a very nice sportscar, but nothing about it screams ‘premium’ to me other than the price (and performance, which is very decent to be fair). It’s certainly not in Porsche’s league for example.

While the spread is not as great, similarly the spread between the Z and Supra is enough to me to not make them direct competitors.

Right, but I just don’t see the Supra as premium the way you seem to. Again, just having BMW parts doesn’t make a car premium. The quality of the materials is well above a budget car of course, but well below a luxury one. The plastic on the doors is pretty low rent, the leather is a bit cheap and sags easily. The paint is normal for the price point. The styling is an acquired taste. Nothing about it screams premium to me other than the performance.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Red-86

The Cayman is not a “luxury car,“

It is possible calling it a luxury car could verge on hyperbole, BUT for sure it is a LONG way from a no-compromise lightweight sports car.

If you think 3,000lb is ‘solid’ (heavy or bank vault-like) for a modern car, I really think your expectations are a bit mismatched with the modern marketplace and modern safety demands.

Oh, it is *quite* solid and "bank-vault-like", I've used those very words to describe my 987 Cayman and the 981 and 718 are no doubt stiffer still. It is so solid because it's the fixed-roof coupe version of a roadster that already has sufficient stiffness built into the lower structure of the car, so it's *very* stiff with a fixed roof acting as a shear web up high. In fact like the 911 coupe it is much stiffer than it needs to be because it is built on an already-stiff-enough open-top car.

Anyway, nothing *wrong* with that, but I would imagine a purpose-built coupe with no roadster version could be significantly lighter...

For sure it feels a LOT more dense than an FT86, a bit *too* substantial for my tastes...

Honestly I overall preferred the feel of my BRZ to my 987, partly because while the 987 was a better road-trip/touring car, the BRZ feels a lot lighter and more immediate and FUN to drive. More so than 2820 lb. vs. 3050 lb. would suggest.

Instead of complaining that Caymans, 911s and 370Zs are too heavy, I think you should be shopping for a Lotus Elise, Exige, or perhaps an Alpine A110. Or get a nice MX-5 Miata and add FI. I think those ultra light cars will suit your preferences far more than expecting Nissan to suddenly deliver a Miata-light 400Z. It’s simply not happening, Nissan wouldn’t do it even if they had a lightweight RWD Miata-like chassis (which they don’t) and we are wasting our time even debating it.

I don't expect it. It is a car forum and I like to talk about cars, so why not express what I'd *like* to see?!

It really sounds like you want an old, flimsy, lightweight car... so why not find a nice 240Z, mod it to your taste, and be happy?

I've done that, quite successfully! Will likely do so again, but again, I don't think I'm outside of my rights to express what I'd like to see in a modern sports car!

No modern manufacturer is going to build you an affordable 300HP+ modern sportscar with a ‘flimsy chassis’ and there is no way Nissan is going to replace their stiff, 330HP 370Z with a flimsy 250HP Z car that handles like a 50 year old car.

Not asking for "flimsy". But for sure 40kN-m/deg is way way WAY overkill! And not at all necessary for either safety or performance. Boxster and 911 convertible and C8 are less than half as stiff.

I think all new cars are going to disappoint you.

The FT86 has been a fantastic car for me! My only disappointments are:
A. 2+2 configuration gives it fairly craptastic 55/45ish F/R weight distribution, so it's not as good as it could be for handling additional power
B. yeah, it'd be nice to have a bit more power...

So my "ideal" sports car would be 50/50 cab-rearward 2-seat version. Even with the 205hp 4, but yeah, it'd be nice to have a 300-330ish hp N.A. V6...

For modern, stock sportscars, again, you can pick two from a) powerful, b) lightweight, c) affordable.

Again the "light weight = $$$$$" myth! Lightweight cars are in general MORE affordable. Less power needed, smaller wheels/tires/brakes, etc. etc.

Anyway, again, when you start with a, let's say more "luxury-oriented" car like a BMW boulevardier or an Infinity sedan, you've already commited to an overweight "sports" car.

Coulda been different!

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

More power, bigger wheels, brakes, better tires, carbon fiber here and there, nicer information/speakers, sport seats, appearance package etc? Or what they do with the base Q60, LUXE and RED SPORT 400 trim? We'll just have to wait and see when and if this happens.

They 370Z already offers trims with all those features you just mentioned, and they price those packages up to $45k, so it doesn’t sound like you are saying they will do much different. It sounds like what you are saying is that they will drop the new engine in the car and then make more stuff standard, which will raise the price to $40k+. This could be possible, but I think they will continue to sell a basic trim with cloth interior, etc to keep the entry price reasonable.

I also don’t think they will increase the build/design/material quality of the Z to match the Supra because that could eat into the Q60’s sales. The Supra is not eating into any of the Lexus lines because it is a BMW, nor is it eating into any of BMWs lines because it looks like a Toyota Supra. I think it is in Nissan’s interest to keep the Z at an affordable price. The only reason to bump it up in quality and price would be to give more room between it and a 240SX/86-competitor, but that isn’t happening.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They 370Z already offers trims with all those features you just mentioned, and they price those packages up to $45k, so it doesn’t sound like you are saying they will do much different. It sounds like what you are saying is that they will drop the new engine in the car and then make more stuff standard, which will raise the price to $40k+. This could be possible, but I think they will continue to sell a basic trim with cloth interior, etc to keep the entry price reasonable.

I also don’t think they will increase the build/design/material quality of the Z to match the Supra because that could eat into the Q60’s sales. The Supra is not eating into any of the Lexus lines because it is a BMW, nor is it eating into any of BMWs lines because it looks like a Toyota Supra. I think it is in Nissan’s interest to keep the Z at an affordable price. The only reason to bump it up in quality and price would be to give more room between it and a 240SX/86-competitor, but that isn’t happening.

Idk, like I said we have to wait and see what or if anything does happen.

As I just posted in the Supra thread. IMO, there really isn't anything special about the Zupra's interior. It's bland as f***. Sure overall the materials are nicer than the current Z, but that isn't saying much. The only real positive for me is probably the iDrive.

[gymratter]

slighly off topic, but interior on the newer Nissans look nicer than the models they replaced. even the Sentra seems to be an improvement. there was a $1,320 price increase tho.

B17 vs B18