SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[HeresMyMind]

Yay glad I’m DS with my 2013...

Too bad I’ll never go SSC due to the springs and tires.

-B

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by HeresMyMind

Yay glad I’m DS with my 2013...

Too bad I’ll never go SSC due to the springs and tires.

-B

What's wrong with the springs? My short drives in SSC showed me that the tires are fine. Just not friendly cause over the limit they just chatter and do stupid stuff.

[HeresMyMind]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

What's wrong with the springs? My short drives in SSC showed me that the tires are fine. Just not friendly cause over the limit they just chatter and do stupid stuff.

I. DD mine and prefer my re71s :-)

Konis. Front Perrin bar. Re71rs. Rpf1s 17x7 and crash bolts.

-B

[conehead]

Originally Posted by steverife

Last time I messed with the NASA system, you could build things like a theoretical turbo crx on wide tires and run against stock Mini Cooper S's and things of that nature. I think the reason it "works" is because the competition often isn't deep.

Eh, in reality when someone builds up a class killer like you describe, they just adjust the starting points for that car the next season. There is no perfect system but the NASA system is much better. SCCA clubs understand that they need new members, but the current classing system just frustrates new members. A single minor mod can sent you all the way up to the Modified classes.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by conehead

Eh, in reality when someone builds up a class killer like you describe, they just adjust the starting points for that car the next season. There is no perfect system but the NASA system is much better. SCCA clubs understand that they need new members, but the current classing system just frustrates new members. A single minor mod can sent you all the way up to the Modified classes.

There are numerous examples. I have several friends with NASA TT builds with points in mind. If I showed up with a street car in the same class, I'd be giving up several seconds. NASA isn't going to reclass dozens of them next year to made it more "fair" for me. Any car that is built towards the limit of the rules is going to be at an advantage over someone that mods with no regards to the rules or just shows up. That is inherent in classing.

If you want to build to a rule set and compete with likeminded individuals, the SCCA model is pretty good (even if many individual rules may not make sense) and offers lots of options.

[conehead]

Originally Posted by steverife

There are numerous examples. I have several friends with NASA TT builds with points in mind. If I showed up with a street car in the same class, I'd be giving up several seconds. NASA isn't going to reclass dozens of them next year to made it more "fair" for me. Any car that is built towards the limit of the rules is going to be at an advantage over someone that mods with no regards to the rules or just shows up. That is inherent in classing.

If you want to build to a rule set and compete with likeminded individuals, the SCCA model is pretty good (even if many individual rules may not make sense) and offers lots of options.

Of course a car built to the limit of the rules will be more competitive. That is not at all what I mean. The problem with the SCCA system is that a single mod, even one that gives no performance gain (like an oil cooler or a hood) can shoot you up several levels to a completely ridiculous class. It often causes new members with slightly modified cars to either remove their mods or quit, where in the NASA system they would just get a few points. The end result is that many cars can be competitive in many classes. Your friends builds are probably good examples. The could start with dozens of different cars and make them competitive, where in SCCA you must start with the current hot model or its impossible to win. The 86 is unique in that it can actually compete in CS or DS but it still has no chance in either.

[steverife]

Originally Posted by conehead

Of course a car built to the limit of the rules will be more competitive. That is not at all what I mean. The problem with the SCCA system is that a single mod, even one that gives no performance gain (like an oil cooler or a hood) can shoot you up several levels to a completely ridiculous class. It often causes new members with slightly modified cars to either remove their mods or quit, where in the NASA system they would just get a few points. The end result is that many cars can be competitive in many classes. Your friends builds are probably good examples. The could start with dozens of different cars and make them competitive, where in SCCA you must start with the current hot model or its impossible to win. The 86 is unique in that it can actually compete in CS or DS but it still has no chance in either.

LOL. My friends abandoned their builds to buy/put something together that is competitive within the NASA structure. ...and spend money every year to optimize rule changes.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by conehead

The problem with the SCCA system is that a single mod, even one that gives no performance gain (like an oil cooler or a hood) can shoot you up several levels to a completely ridiculous class.

I'd argue that those are not trivial mods with many cars, adding cooling capability can increase the ceiling for power generation by a significant amount and people will spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to shed 10-20 lbs like a hood does, again not to mention the cooling and potential aerodynamic effects benefits of vented hoods. "Simple Mods" are almost always based in significant performance gains, even if they're ebay knockoffs that offer no real advantage suddenly looking the other way or allowing a few exceptions basically destroys the classing system.

It goes back to your original point, of course optimized cars are the way to go, both as a competitor and as a rules writer, playing dumb is just setting yourself up for failure.

That's why locals should be nice and look the other way when they know that it's not going to be a big deal, like the guy who shows up with an aftermarket supercharger on his car and classes himself in a Street class but is still on OE wheels with 400TW all season tires, pretty sure nobody bothered that guy in my region, but he didn't come back, hopefully it's not because someone bothered him because that would be lame.

where in SCCA you must start with the current hot model or its impossible to win. The 86 is unique in that it can actually compete in CS or DS but it still has no chance in either.

Unless you're in a spec class you're always chasing rules changes and class rebalancing, I don't care if it's SCCA, NASA, USAC or the FIA, and even then new stuff comes out every once in awhile anyway (i.e. Spec Miata is ditching Bilstein's for Penske's soon).

STX is fun and not as expensive as people think, $2k coilovers, $1.3k for the first set of wheels and tires (Tirerack brand wheel $148/ea), $200 swaybar, $1k for a header and OFT and go. Those are list prices btw and when set up and driven well should be a trophy contender, race tires fit in the trunk of the car, still fun without header/tune imho if someone wants to build slow and have fun buy in the order listed.

[conehead]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I'd argue that those are not trivial mods with many cars, adding cooling capability can increase the ceiling for power generation by a significant amount and people will spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to shed 10-20 lbs like a hood does, again not to mention the cooling and potential aerodynamic effects benefits of vented hoods. "Simple Mods" are almost always based in significant performance gains, even if they're ebay knockoffs that offer no real advantage suddenly looking the other way or allowing a few exceptions basically destroys the classing system.

It goes back to your original point, of course optimized cars are the way to go, both as a competitor and as a rules writer, playing dumb is just setting yourself up for failure.

That's why locals should be nice and look the other way when they know that it's not going to be a big deal, like the guy who shows up with an aftermarket supercharger on his car and classes himself in a Street class but is still on OE wheels with 400TW all season tires, pretty sure nobody bothered that guy in my region, but he didn't come back, hopefully it's not because someone bothered him because that would be lame.



Unless you're in a spec class you're always chasing rules changes and class rebalancing, I don't care if it's SCCA, NASA, USAC or the FIA, and even then new stuff comes out every once in awhile anyway (i.e. Spec Miata is ditching Bilstein's for Penske's soon).

STX is fun and not as expensive as people think, $2k coilovers, $1.3k for the first set of wheels and tires (Tirerack brand wheel $148/ea), $200 swaybar, $1k for a header and OFT and go. Those are list prices btw and when set up and driven well should be a trophy contender, race tires fit in the trunk of the car, still fun without header/tune imho if someone wants to build slow and have fun buy in the order listed.

No, you are missing my original point. An optimized car is optimum. Most casual enthusiasts already have a car they love with mods they want to keep. With a NASA style points system, they get a few points and are in the ballpark with enjoyable competition. In the SCCA system, a single minor mod can jump you up to a ridiculous level and that makes it not fun.



An oil cooler gains you precisely nothing on a 1 minute autocross course. It is a good example because it is a common early mod for those that also want to track day where is can make a difference. Most people don't want to remove and reinstall it between events. I was happy to see that they will allow them in SSC, and hope it spreads to street.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by conehead

An oil cooler gains you precisely nothing on a 1 minute autocross course.

In this car...

Rules are always going to reward some and screw some. If your version of fun is winning, its going to be a tough time wherever you go with unbalanced mods. The wider the wiggle room, the more costly it is to win. NASA rules are just as bad, just in a different way.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by conehead

An oil cooler gains you precisely nothing on a 1 minute autocross course.

Agree to disagree there, I've seen 240F oil temps on a 1 minute autocross course in my car. Heat soak is real, most cars pull power in hot environments, and you take every tenth you can get in autox.

Edit: I do appreciate your point about NASA system classing mods and not classing by a prep limit that's not necessarily beneficial to all car sets. But in the SCCA Street Class Autox thread I'm gonna nitpick shit that really shouldn't be let in just 'because nasa TT does'.

[KevBRZ]

I just picked up a BRZ and looks like i may just go into DS this year, was contemplating SSC or maybe STX but i figured maybe i would just see how this thing is stock being i have only put like 50 miles on it so far.... Hated to tear out/change the suspension radically before even getting much seat time at all in it. Its a been about 3 years since i have had a car to run so I am just glad to be back in the game. So far it is a hoot to drive!!

[Molez93]

Originally Posted by KevBRZ

I just picked up a BRZ and looks like i may just go into DS this year, was contemplating SSC or maybe STX but i figured maybe i would just see how this thing is stock being i have only put like 50 miles on it so far.... Hated to tear out/change the suspension radically before even getting much seat time at all in it. Its a been about 3 years since i have had a car to run so I am just glad to be back in the game. So far it is a hoot to drive!!

+1 on that plan. As long as I've been racing, getting some time with it in stock form sounds perfect to me. That's what I did with my Focus RS most recently, and with nearly all of the other autocross rides since I started in 1991.

[steverife]

The Falkens in SSC are a real adjustment, so if that is where you ultimately want to go, I'd recommend jumping right in.