Interested in comparing the FT86 to the Silvia?

[regal]

The title was supposed to have a question mark.

Probably most here are familiar with the 240sx but in case you are not it was the only other alternative to the Miata for a sporty rwd lieghtweight car. It wasn't a hit like the miata in the USA because the EPA required Nissan to selll it with a 2.4L low revving truck engine. In Japan however it was very popular because it had the engine it was designed for called the SR20DET model called 200sx.

Its an interesting comparison because I'm seeing a lot of 240SX's in the USA restored with an SR20DET and sellling for 1/3 the price of the FR-S.

The new FR-S and an SR20DET 240SX are somewhat similiar "on Paper".

Wheel base : FRS: 99.4 in S14: 101.2 in
Width: FRS: 69.9 in S14: 68.0 in
Weight: FRS: 2737 lb S14: 2,762.4 lb
HP: FRS: 200hp @7k S14: 200 HP @ 6k
Torque: FRS: 161 ftllb @6.6k S14: 203 ftlb @ 4k
MPG: epa estimates are fairly useless but a well tuned S14 SR20DET reportedly gets 33-35 mpg on the HWy about the same as the FR-s, both require 93 octane.

Both have Mcpherson strut front suspension, rear suspension are both indepedant but the FR-S has been shown to not be a conventinal double wishbone as advertised. The 240sx can be upgraded to the later model 6 speed manual which is reportedly not the greatest but adequate to ~350hp.

The older Nisasan engine is proven very reliable kept stock. IMHO probably a suprior engine since it has forged internals, 50 hp can be addded with little expense, and of course much more torque.

Now what has 20 years of technology gained us? Better emmisions for sure.

But the biggest difference I think is the Chassis. The 240sx doesn't have what I would call a stiff unibody, in fact its a bit flexy. I get the impression that the FR-S has a very stiff chassis and we all know about the low center of gravity.

As far as performance: the SR20DET in stock form is 0-60 in about 6.5" and high 14's quarter mile. Sound familiar? Now the differene is that less than $1k in fuel management and boost increase its a 13 second car.

As far as handling finding info on the SR20DET powered 240sx (japan version) is difficult but I remember sport compact mag reporting 73mph and 0.95G with just coilovers.

All in all I think the cars are close enough that true driver enthusiasts would be comparing the two yet I haven't seen much discussion.

[NickD]

240sx/silvia is comparable on paper, good luck trying to find one that hasn't been slammed/quarter panels pulled/setup for drift/rattlecan painted etc.

[Fussy08X]

surprised the two havent really been compared yet. I have an s15 and i still really like it even after like 8 years. buying an 86 because I wanna try out an n/a car and im a fan of the original 86 ever since initial d

[Ocho-Seis]

I have an S14 Kouki also sitting in my lot, but I'm not comparing it because it's in tear down mode waiting for that faithful day I drop the RB26 in it. The thing is The Silvia chasis is so interchangable none of them remain stock or anything for long. SO there is no point in comparing it to an 86. Thats just IMO.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Fussy08X

surprised the two havent really been compared yet. I have an s15 and i still really like it even after like 8 years. buying an 86 because I wanna try out an n/a car and im a fan of the original 86 ever since initial d

they have been compared. a lot. you would probably have more luck looking in the vs section for things of this nature

[regal]

Originally Posted by Ocho-Seis

I have an S14 Kouki also sitting in my lot, but I'm not comparing it because it's in tear down mode waiting for that faithful day I drop the RB26 in it. The thing is The Silvia chasis is so interchangable none of them remain stock or anything for long. SO there is no point in comparing it to an 86. Thats just IMO.

There are plenty in stock form left on the east coat (most in automatic form easily coverted), and the comparison is to the stock Japan version, which one can easily build in the USA. Its a valid comporison stock Japanese Silvia to the FR-s.

[Ocho-Seis]

I see. Well I know people who rather compare the Hyundai Genesis 2.0T to the Silvia in that case. Good luck with finding your comparisons though.

[Max Schnell]

As someone who had owned and modified a 240sx let me give you some perspective from my end. I owned a 1995 S14 base which I started with. All my comments refer only to the US 240sx, please do not compare it to any other specs.

I started modding my 240sx when SR swaps were still being researched back in 1998. Needless to say I have tested the good, the bad and the ugly of 240sx aftermarket. I will state though that I never actually went with the SR, I ended up with a turbo KA.

The 240sx is kind of similar in concept to the FRS/BRZ except with much older technology and the US got the KA24 motor.

The 240sx is a capable chasis but not while stock. Stock it is a slow, flex prone and softly dampened car on skinny tires, weak brakes, with the main virtue being relatively small, and low body compared to alot of similar cars. It has the pancake shape which I always kind of liked.

The real promise of the 240sx is in the potential based upon aftermarket modification. The car has been around forever and has alot of potential with the right modifications. Your MAIN enemy will be AGE and WEAR based upon age.

The sheet metal on the 240sx is not the strongest and certainly not very rust proof. To find a clean rust free example to start with is not easy.

The you start the aftermarket. Lets just say that to get a 240sx into a clean physical shape (not some bondo, omg low drifta gansta pos status) will cost you a nice bill at the body shop (kit, refresh, ding removal, possibly rust removal too). Oh I'd say 5k.

Next all suspension must go and reinforced bushings put in. Another 5k in parts and whatever labor.

Motor has to be either built or swapped for boost. Good swaps are 5k range with basic bolt-on upgrades.

So by the time you are done you have basically rebuilt the car on aftermarket stuff. Car will be worth more in parts than it is as a car.

A good modded 240sx handles like very well but with a tail happy attitude and runs with the best of them in a straight line. It will ride like a dump truck and is likely obnoxious in loudness. Stuff will vibrate and you will always wonder if the motor will take another 5lbs of boost.

Luxury What? I can't hear you over my exhaust!

I loved mine for many years until the bill hit over 30k and the car still didn't run right and more stuff was going due to age.

[Enilder]

Originally Posted by Fussy08X

surprised the two havent really been compared yet. I have an s15 and i still really like it even after like 8 years. buying an 86 because I wanna try out an n/a car and im a fan of the original 86 ever since initial d

S15. Best looking Silvia, ever.

[FTEIGHTSIX]

Originally Posted by Max Schnell

As someone who had owned and modified a 240sx let me give you some perspective from my end. I owned a 1995 S14... (AWESOME LONG STORY OF OWNERS HISTORY W/ 240sx's)

Sounds almost exactly like my story, except I bought and started modding my S14 in 2005.

[adprokid]

n/a supra is fun, more reliable, and hold its value better.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by adprokid

n/a supra is fun, more reliable, and hold its value better.

...where did that come from?

[brzzz]

I think the argument should be, that if a new s15 were available today how much would it cost. If they were comparable, would you still get the ft86? Does the ft86 feel like a car that has 15+ years of technology advantage?

[Synack]

The reason I'm getting the FR-S is because I've been waiting, I'm sure with many thousands of people, for a RWD lightweight car that was very similar to the 240 to come out. We've been getting close but not quite what we all wanted with cars like the RX8 and the Genesis and others. But they weren't lightweight enough or they had a rotary motor, which most people don't want. IMHO the FR-S is like the rebirth of the 240. I know I know it was built after the original AE86 but it definitely feels like a modern day 240. Which works great for me. I have contemplated buying a 240 numerous times but I always wanted a new version where I didn't have to worry about aging parts. Not to mention out of the box audio and interior. I'll be proud to be the first owner of my Whiteout 6MT FR-S. Maybe even the last.

[adprokid]

Originally Posted by fatoni

...where did that come from?

too much comparing is going on, also i would like to compare it to lexus IS300, oh i forgot mark 2, lexus sc300, zx300, z350, 370, genesis, mr2, mrs, s2k

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by adprokid

too much comparing is going on, also i would like to compare it to lexus IS300, oh i forgot mark 2, lexus sc300, zx300, z350, 370, genesis, mr2, mrs, s2k

well its a new car. people need to find out where this thing sits. there is a whole vs forum. comparisons are good, thats how you find out where your money is best spent

[adprokid]

Originally Posted by fatoni

well its a new car. people need to find out where this thing sits. there is a whole vs forum. comparisons are good, thats how you find out where your money is best spent

Test drive/ the vs forum

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by adprokid

Test drive/ the vs forum

while a forum doesnt replace a test drive, it can provide useful information. there is a real world counter part that is more effective than a forum for every aspect of owning a car. youre welcome not to go the the vs subforum if you dont see its point

[GenkiElite]

Is there a way to thumbs down a thread?
Nevermind, found it.

[regal]

So an S14 owner thumbs down the thread? I find that interesting.

Max,
I appreciate your input. But thats why you buy a car that someone else did the conversion on, I think it is realistic to find/finish a near complete replica of the Japanese version of the 240SX for under $10k. Luckily I am a painter so a $5k paint job costs me just the paint. There was a similiar period in the 80's where you could find "restored" big block 'cudas for $4k that someone sunk $10k into. Now they are 5 figures.

I agree with Brzz, but the S15 I think was heavy, more of a S14 vs FR-S comparison.

I think the subject is interesting, the biggest question will come down to the boxer engine. Thats the biggest difference, on paper the SR20DET beats it stock and with just minor mods it murders it. So I my fear is this boxer engine may have the same sort of stigma/lack of potential that killed the RX-7.

Someone mentioned turbo lag, what do we call that big torque dip with the BRZ, Direct Injection lag ?

Again just cognitive dissonance before shelling out $25k for a new FR-S vs $10k for a restored 240sx.

But I probably wouldn't have started this thread if the FR-S wasn't sold out within 300 miles from me

[Synack]

Originally Posted by regal

So an S14 owner thumbs down the thread? I find that interesting.

Max,
I appreciate your input. But thats why you buy a car that someone else did the conversion on, I think it is realistic to find/finish a near complete replica of the Japanese version of the 240SX for under $10k. Luckily I am a painter so a $5k paint job costs me just the paint. There was a similiar period in the 80's where you could find "restored" big block 'cudas for $4k that someone sunk $10k into. Now they are 5 figures.

I agree with Brzz, but the S15 I think was heavy, more of a S14 vs FR-S comparison.

I think the subject is interesting, the biggest question will come down to the boxer engine. Thats the biggest difference, on paper the SR20DET beats it stock and with just minor mods it murders it. So I my fear is this boxer engine may have the same sort of stigma/lack of potential that killed the RX-7.

Someone mentioned turbo lag, what do we call that big torque dip with the BRZ, Direct Injection lag ?

Again just cognitive dissonance before shelling out $25k for a new FR-S vs $10k for a restored 240sx.

But I probably wouldn't have started this thread if the FR-S wasn't sold out within 300 miles from me

Nice outro

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus on Jelly Bean

[Max Schnell]

Not to generalize a whole group of enthusiasts but most if not all 240sx that someone else did the conversion etc on I would not touch with a 10 foot pole. Its a cheap platform often modded by young guys trying to get into the drift scene. Maybe you can find a gem here and there but those are usually not sold until pushing the limits on something had made the owner want to just get rid of it.

Even the best conversion 240sx is running a junkyard motor from another country with no history on the motor other than what you are being told. A JUN or TOMEI fully built crate motor would run 10-15k just for the motor. Those I would trust but in a 10k car built by someone else? Not likely...

A fully built motor etc for the 240sx is still money but its the details that cost more and most would skip. I can talk about the 240sx all day long because I love the 240sx but I would not trust one someone else modded.

The S14 240sx will always be in my fondest of memories as the first car I owned, modded and loved. But there is only so much you can do about age and wear unless you are ready to cough up serious dough.

That is why I am here looking so closely at the FRS/BRZ. I want to move away from older cars and modding them. I'd rather find a decent new car I can mod mildly and enjoy mostly worry free than dealing with all the old car issues. My target car for comprison has always been the E36 M3 because I love the way that car drives, responds to mods and performs. If the twins or updated versions can hit that performance target in every aspect I will drop money on one in a heartbeat.(they are very close already so its only a slight bit of power bump and seeing if there are any other weaknesses to be ready to modify) Until then I will observe and learn about the twins and their aftermarket support.