Interested in buying an FR-S...

[Ayaz2589]

im getting mine in Asphalt, i loved the color. Also my mother and my girlfriend love the asphalt color as well.

[Liquidsnake]

I knew the moment I sat in it, it was meant to be. I fell in love at first sight. The wait was worth it. The maddening daily YouTube visits were over (you all know what I am talkig about)

[Thanntos]

I've been reading some really dis-concerning thing's lately that have me kinda second guessing now

-I have never owned/driven a RWD car at all. Heard a bit about it being trouble in the rain, with the back sliding out when even turning in normal communte. Is rear wheel drive really that different/noticable? I whip my RSX all over the place even on normal roads and it does everything firm and easy, complete control. Will I be able to do that in an FR-S as easily, or is RWD a bit more troublesome in that? (I don't know if anyone has had an 03 RSX, but does it feel similar? lol ) And the power is fine for me, it's always more about the handling then speed for me. That's evident with my RSX, which is still still a blast to drive on normal roads.

-I feel the interior is getting a lot of shit. IE cheap nobs, back seats being useless, head unit being cheap as well and ofc the fake dash. (Granted my RSX back seats are super small as well, the inside just feels loads bigger then the FR-S I sat in.

- How is this car, honestly, for a person that is mostly going to use this for commute, highway/general driving, and not much track use, like at all?
I LOVE the look, and I know it's getting great praise for being such a good handling car, but I just have been getting a sick feeling in my stomach today thinking it might not be worth it or right for me to get such a car, would I be better off getting something else or keeping my RSX a bit

[Chewie4299]

Originally Posted by Thanntos

I've been reading some really dis-concerning thing's lately that have me kinda second guessing now

-I have never owned/driven a RWD car at all. Heard a bit about it being trouble in the rain, with the back sliding out when even turning in normal communte. Is rear wheel drive really that different/noticable? I whip my RSX all over the place even on normal roads and it does everything firm and easy, complete control. Will I be able to do that in an FR-S as easily, or is RWD a bit more troublesome in that? (I don't know if anyone has had an 03 RSX, but does it feel similar? lol ) And the power is fine for me, it's always more about the handling then speed for me. That's evident with my RSX, which is still still a blast to drive on normal roads.

Two answers to this...
Yes, RWD is different and noticable.
No, you shouldn't be scared of rain unless you are running bald tires or extra super extreme high performance summer tires. The traction control will keep you in check if you do start to lose some grip.

I'm not scared of rain in the least especially because I won't be driving like a bat out of hell in the rain. My Jeep was effectively RWD when not in 4wd for snow/mud/rock climbing. When I had big mud tires on the thing they'd break loose in the rain constantly. It did not have traction control, obviously, I had to recognize the limits and avoid them OR respond properly when things did get squirrely. With the stock tires I never had a problem.

Originally Posted by Thanntos

-I feel the interior is getting a lot of shit. IE cheap nobs, back seats being useless, head unit being cheap as well and ofc the fake dash. (Granted my RSX back seats are super small as well, the inside just feels loads bigger then the FR-S I sat in.

I thought the stock headunit was crap as well but as I've fiddled with it and gotten used to its features I'm in not rush to replace it. I will. But I'm in no rush. BTA is sweet.

The rest is subjective...

The rear seats are tiny but not unusable in a pinch. Personally, I drove a Jeep Wrangler for 6 years. The back seats were cramped and were tough to access but in 6 years I can count the number of times I've used them on my fingers. So, for me, not an issue. I can cram a cousin or two back there if I have to for a short trip.

The quality of the materials is mediocre. Not amazing. That's because the money used to develop and build the car went into the drive. I have no complaints because the materials may be mid-grade but the built quality is solid and both are infinitely better than the TJ Wrangler I most recently owned.

Originally Posted by Thanntos

- How is this car, honestly, for a person that is mostly going to use this for commute, highway/general driving, and not much track use, like at all?
I LOVE the look, and I know it's getting great praise for being such a good handling car, but I just have been getting a sick feeling in my stomach today thinking it might not be worth it or right for me to get such a car, would I be better off getting something else or keeping my RSX a bit

You need to make this decision for yourself but I will tell you that mine will be driven the same way. I'll be modifying it but not to any extremes. I've never been to a track before but, with this car and some HPDE insurance, I intend to give it a go at least 1-2 times a year. I'd be doing myself a disservice by not doing so.

I'm one of the noisiest guys in the engine chirping thread(s) but, while this issue bothers me, it doesn't detract from my feelings towards this car. I'm optimistic about a fix from Toyota/Subaru.

[Thanntos]

Originally Posted by Chewie4299

Two answers to this...
Yes, RWD is different and noticable.
No, you shouldn't be scared of rain unless you are running bald tires or extra super extreme high performance summer tires. The traction control will keep you in check if you do start to lose some grip.

I'm not scared of rain in the least especially because I won't be driving like a bat out of hell in the rain.



I thought the stock headunit was crap as well but as I've fiddled with it and gotten used to its features I'm in not rush to replace it. I will. But I'm in no rush. BTA is sweet.

The rest is subjective...

The rear seats are tiny but not unusable in a pinch. Personally, I drove a Jeep Wrangler for 6 years. The back seats were cramped and were tough to access but in 6 years I can count the number of times I've used them on my fingers. So, for me, not an issue. I can cram a cousin or two back there if I have to for a short trip.

The quality of the materials is mediocre. Not amazing. That's because the money used to develop and build the car went into the drive. I have no complaints because the materials may be mid-grade but the built quality is solid and both are infinitely better than the TJ Wrangler I most recently owned.



You need to make this decision for yourself but I will tell you that mine will be driven the same way. I'll be modifying it but not to any extremes. I've never been to a track before but, with this car and some HPDE insurance, I intend to give it a go at least 1-2 times a year. I'd be doing myself a disservice by not doing so.

I'm one of the noisiest guys in the engine chirping thread(s) but, while this issue bothers me, it doesn't detract from my feelings towards this car. I'm optimistic about a fix from Toyota/Subaru.

Chewie I really thank you for all your feedback and taking the time to answer all the questions I've had this past week.

I 'feel' I want this car, and I will give it a proper test drive I think this week. I guess I am just being insanely cautious with this whole 'possible purchase' I don't want to regret my decision a year into the car and say to myself "Could I have gotten something better/waiting until things were completely proper with this car".

How is RWD different than Front, could you explain a little on short detail?

I am sure you and many other understand my deep concern and back-and-forth thoughts with this.

I do trust you when you say you will be using this car like I stated, and I definitely trust your opinion with everything you have posted not just in my thread but all over the forums. I think it will definitely become a car I can drive like I do my RSX now, without any worries. STILL, all these concerns I have won't go away and it will still play in my mind up until/if I purchase it, and even after. What do you mean about hoping from a fix from Toyota?

That's another concern of mine. Any and all problems people have been posting, if toyota does decide to do something about it, with new cars does Toyota call you in and take care of everything no charge on a car like this? What kind of coverage can I except on the car with known issue and possible fixes/upgrades when they figure stuff out?

[Chewie4299]

Originally Posted by Thanntos

Chewie I really thank you for all your feedback and taking the time to answer all the questions I've had this past week.

I 'feel' I want this car, and I will give it a proper test drive I think this week. I guess I am just being insanely cautious with this whole 'possible purchase' I don't want to regret my decision a year into the car and say to myself "Could I have gotten something better/waiting until things were completely proper with this car".

How is RWD different than Front, could you explain a little on short detail?

I am sure you and many other understand my deep concern and back-and-forth thoughts with this.

I do trust you when you say you will be using this car like I stated, and I definitely trust your opinion with everything you have posted not just in my thread but all over the forums. I think it will definitely become a car I can drive like I do my RSX now, without any worries. STILL, all these concerns I have won't go away and it will still play in my mind up until/if I purchase it, and even after. What do you mean about hoping from a fix from Toyota?

That's another concern of mine. Any and all problems people have been posting, if toyota does decide to do something about it, with new cars does Toyota call you in and take care of everything no charge on a car like this? What kind of coverage can I except on the car with known issue and possible fixes/upgrades when they figure stuff out?

Keep in mind that it's a brand new car. As such, the people now driving it are VERY concerned about issues arising because there is no history. This results in many things being brought up repeatedly or blown out of proportion.

A new sub-forum was created today to consolidate these reports and help determine which are rare, freak occurances, which are quirks, which are widespread problems, and what the solutions are or are going to be.

Here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=72

For example, there have been several threads created on the 'thumping noise' then putting the transmission in 1st or 2nd gear at low speeds, after idling w/ clutch engaged (pedal out), or one of a few other scenarios. Folks get REALLY worried about this as possibly being the first hint of a major issue when, in fact, it is completely normal. There's a complete explanation for why it happens and it's not the only vehicle that it happens to. There is absolutely no harm being done. I find this 'thump' or 'clunk' reassuring. It's telling me all is well.

There was a single report of a vehicle being delivered with no transmission fluid and the tranny turning into a paperweight/rattle. This is not an issue with the car and is, instead, an oversight on the part of Subaru (even though it was an FR-S as they are all built in a Subie plant). You better believe it'll be made right for the owner.

There have been a number of reports of rough idles, idle dips, CELs all seemingly linked. Toyota showed that they were jumping on and working towards correcting these as well with one extreme case in which the owner's engine died completely after being fiddled with. They gave him a whole new car and took the engine from the first to work out the specifics of what occured. It's all documented here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8285

I've never experienced this issue.

If they issue recalls you'll get a letter in the mail with the details. You take the letter to your dealership and they fix it for you at no charge.

Again, even this post from me may make it seem like this car is a lemon. It's not. Remember, you always hear the bad because it's something to talk about. You may see 20 threads from people about rough idles. 2,000 cars could be completely fine and you'd never know.

[Chewie4299]

As for RWD vs. FWD... there's always more to be added to the discussion.

Personally I will never own a FWD vehicle as my only vehicle again. I had an 03 Evo (AWD), Jeep Wrangler (4x4), and now the FR-S (RWD) since my last FWD car, a 2002 Mitsubishi Lancer. I'll own one if it fits the bill as a secondary car/DD if I ever need one but if I can only have one car it will be RWD, 4WD, or AWD. Actually, at the moment, I'm planning on spending <$1,500 on a beater pickup because I'd like to have something for hauling and something with 4wd if I need it which I may not. The FR-S should do pretty well in slippery conditions with some winter tires.

Try this for a well rounded answer on the differences. Again more can be added:

Rear wheel drive vs. front wheel drive. Which is better?

There is an endless debate on automotive forums throughout the internet. Which is better; rear wheel drive (rwd) or front wheel drive (fwd)? Let's look at each.

Front Wheel Drive
Around since the 1920's, front wheel drive didn't catch on with American consumers until the gas crisis in the 1970's. As Americans struggled against high fuel prices, automakers began to seek new ways to increase fuel efficiency. The best way of course was to reduce the size (and thus the weight) of most vehicles. As Detroit aimed to make cars smaller, they needed a more efficient layout that would yield more interior room in a smaller package.
Front wheel drive was the solution. By placing the engine and transaxle in the front, there is no large transmission housing or driveshaft tunnel running through the passenger compartment. In addition, engines were positioned transversely to reduce the size of the engine bay. And there was another advantage as well. With 60% of its weight at the front, 40% at the back, fwd holds an advantage in slippery conditions such as ice or snow as more weight is over the drive wheels reducing slip during acceleration. But most of the advantages end there.

As most of the weight in up front, a fwd car is not as well balanced therefore it doesn't handle quite as well. Also, as vehicles continue to become more powerful, front wheel drive becomes more of a liability. Torque steer (when the steering wheel pulls to one side during acceleration) is a serious issue with many front wheel drive cars that exceed 250hp. As such, we've seen a resurgence in the popularity of rear wheel drive in more powerful vehicles.

Rear Wheel Drive
Prior to the fuel crises in the 1970's, rear wheel drive was king. Just about every vehicle, from economy to luxury, came with rear wheel drive. The shift from rear wheel drive to front took about a decade. Since the mid eighties, just about every economy car, family sedan, minivan and even many sport coupes came with front wheel drive. Luxury marks such as BMW and Mercedes-Benz continued on with rear wheel drive but Cadillac eventually moved every vehicle to front wheel drive. Once again, times have changed.

Over the last few years we've seen more and more vehicles (re) introduce rear wheel drive. Why? Well, it simple. As cars become more powerful it is difficult to have one set of wheels doing the steering and the accelerating. By having the front wheels do the steering, and the rear wheels driving the car, you get a better-balanced vehicle. This eliminates torque steer and improves acceleration. Rear wheel drive offers better weight distribution (much closer to 50/50 than fwd), which in turn offers more predictable handling. Finally, with the advent of traction control and stability management systems, the front wheel drive advantage in slippery conditions has been significantly reduced.

More and more rwd vehicles have the option of AWD as well. If nothing else, this is a great way for automakers to hedge their bets. Still, some consumers are skeptical of rear wheel drive. Perhaps they are the victims of clever marketing by Madison Ave. that tried to get people to accept fwd and forget all about the virtues rear wheel drive. They did a great job. Perhaps too good.
Today cars are more powerful yet yield better fuel economy. As such, we can look at fwd and rwd more objectively. Is one better than the other? Fwd still holds an advantage in terms of packaging efficiency, offering greater interior room in a smaller package.

Rear wheel drive provides better handling and acceleration and with the addition of traction control, virtually eliminates the fwd advantage in the snow. In the end, it depends on what you want from your car. If it's performance, you're looking at rwd. If you're indifferent, perhaps looking for a small car with greater interior volume, it's front wheel drive for you.

Over the last 20 years, technology has improved both layouts, reducing the advantages of fwd to a point where rwd is a viable option for most people. Ultimately, you've got more choice, and when more choice is offered we all win.

From: http://www.all-about-car-selection.c...eel-drive.html

[Skyhound]

Originally Posted by seannyice81

Word from Toyota is that there will be no Turbo model for now. Subaru haven't ruled it out. Some speculation is that Subaru might up displacement to a 2.5L.

There's supposedly a super charger in the works for the FR-S. Not sure how accurate that is though.

Subaru has said that they are not even thinking about a Turbo-charging the BRZ. They said there isn't any room in the bonnet for an intercooler. They don't want to super charge either because fuel efficiency becomes an issue. I personally think they might just leave this one NA no matter how much their fan boys cry for a turbo'd STI. They said the turbo is something they want reserved for the WRX.

This may fit into your decision to get either car.

[Thanntos]

So basically all these minor and major problems aren't going to be felt by everyone that owns one, such as yourself not really having any issue and each car and driver is just going to be a unique experience all together?

Also I didn't even realize my Mom has a Nissan Altima RWD which I have driven several times and I never honestly noticed, so I am sure I could get used to it all quick without much issue. Like you said, I won't be whipping it around in the rain as it is so I doubt Ill have any issues with RWD.

It's still just a matter or getting a proper test drive under my belt and seeing how much I honestly like it and how much it will translate to actual commute/casual/highway/city/town driving, such as yourself Chewie.

[R8]

Originally Posted by Thanntos

Also I didn't even realize my Mom has a Nissan Altima RWD which I have driven several times and I never honestly noticed, so I am sure I could get used to it all quick without much issue. Like you said, I won't be whipping it around in the rain as it is so I doubt Ill have any issues with RWD.

Just keep in mind every RWD car has it's own personality. From what I read, even the BRZ and FR-S handle differently, the FR-S being a bit easier to get sideways than the BRZ.

[Shagaliscious]

Originally Posted by Thanntos

So basically all these minor and major problems aren't going to be felt by everyone that owns one, such as yourself not really having any issue and each car and driver is just going to be a unique experience all together?

Also I didn't even realize my Mom has a Nissan Altima RWD which I have driven several times and I never honestly noticed, so I am sure I could get used to it all quick without much issue. Like you said, I won't be whipping it around in the rain as it is so I doubt Ill have any issues with RWD.

It's still just a matter or getting a proper test drive under my belt and seeing how much I honestly like it and how much it will translate to actual commute/casual/highway/city/town driving, such as yourself Chewie.

O.o

Altima is FWD in every trim level. Coupe & Sedan. So you wouldn't notice it, since it isn't RWD.

[Dadhawk]

This is obviously just my opinion, but I think from the prospective of a daily driver the whole RWD/FWD thing has gotten blown out of proportion.

I go back and forth between the two types of cars all the time and have never really felt one was different than another unless you are pushing the car/suspension to the limits, particularly with traction control.

Are they different, yes. But, I think there is more difference between any two cars of different makes/models with the same type of drivetrain in a daily driving scenario. They will all handle differently on the edge even when they are similar configurations, you just have to know where those edges are.

[Thanntos]

So, one or two more questions, because I think I am pretty much sold on this car, and hopefully am looking forward to getting it very soon.

With all these problems that people are mentioning (the actual problems, ie engine cricket and tail light condensation) do you really think that Toyota will do several recalls within the year/next year to fix some of these issues and help out the people who bought this car that are in turn helping Toyota out? That would be a great, and well, expected service IMHO.

Also, with talks/rumors of a TRD/Turbo version possibility, weather it'd a kit or a new car completely, how will we be able to upgrade to it, if we wanted? Or would we basically have to 'trade in' our stock first-year FR-S for the newer TRD/Turbo version? Or will there be just possible upgrades/kits we can buy and have Toyota/Scion basically do the installation?

[yormaX]

I really love my '10 Civic (Smiley face version), But Honda is going down hill with the Civic brand. I also might trade it in for a FR-S.