Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by motrek

Thanks man. Yeah it will take some getting used to, I'll miss the BMW. And I just drove my friend's Mini and that thing has CRAZY torque (after a pretty serious ~1.5 second lag). That would be fun too. Still, there are always going to be faster cars. Looking forward to 86/BRZ ownership.

Lots of faster cars but a lot less that are more fun.

[accwai]

Originally Posted by VTEC

You can downshift into first, you just need to match rev it first. [...]

Technically the first gear has triple synchro but the gate is more or less closed as soon as you're moving more than a little bit. You can wait and it will eventually go in, but that's probably quite hard on the synchro. So I almost always double clutch from second to first. Doing that up to 20kph is no problem at all. Faster should still possible but haven't tried myself. As for rev match, that's a given in any downshift right? But first gear is particularly sensitive. So try to be as precise as possible or you'll be looking at a big glitch.

[ermax]

1st is triple coned but to consistently downshift to first you have to double clutch. I can smoothly downshift into 1st at 30mph. Outside of autoxing there is little point in downshifting to first at anything over 25 though. If I am rolling along in stop and go in 2nd gear and I am doing 20 or so and need to jump into the other lane and match the flow I will almost always downshift to 1st. Assuming there isn't a big gap in the traffic. Dropping into 1st at or above 20 is nearly impossible in most cars without a double clutch.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by motrek

I'm leaning 90-95% manual, although I feel like I'm in stop-and-go traffic often enough that I've been wanting an automatic for the last few years. But for some reason the automatic 86 is like 1.5 seconds slower to 60?? Not sure why there's such a big difference. Driving the 86 around town, it was annoying to be caught in 2nd at a low speed and not being able to downshift to accelerate faster... does anybody know if automatics downshift to 1st? That might make the automatic faster for some common daily driving scenarios.

That, and I'm bad at heel-and-toeing, although I guess I won't get any better at it if I get the automatic...

The AT is slower on the Twins due gearing but also because they don't launch well. Take the launch out and race from 15mph and I'm sure it would even out a lot. Shift time on the AT is very fast for a traditional auto. It's apparently very responsive to commands too. I don't have any first hand experience with the AT but this is what I have read. I prefer MT on any car though.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

The AT will let you downshift into 1st as long at it won't put you in an overrev situation. That's going to be pretty slow I suspect.

The AT also can do 60MPH in 2nd gear which I understand the manual won't do. The primary reason the AT is slower than the MT from zero to 60 is the lack of launch control, IMO.

With OEM wheels/tires the MT hits redline right at 59mph. So in a 0-60 you get an additional shift and still beats the AT. That launch really kills it for the AT.

Handy tool:
https://www.blocklayer.com/rpm-geare...nCurrentGear:6

[motrek]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am saying that you are making a big deal it if a normal everyday action required to drive a MT. The over analyzing the need to shift is frightening it’s shear lack of any reasonable thought.
...

C'mon guy, nobody is making a BIG deal about having to downshift to accelerate harder. How black-and-white is your little world if everything either takes literally zero effort or is almost impossible? And if somebody says anything at all on a forum, they're making a "big deal" about it?

[motrek]

Originally Posted by ermax

The AT is slower on the Twins due gearing but also because they don't launch well. Take the launch out and race from 15mph and I'm sure it would even out a lot. Shift time on the AT is very fast for a traditional auto. It's apparently very responsive to commands too. I don't have any first hand experience with the AT but this is what I have read. I prefer MT on any car though.

Uff, makes the decision even harder for me since I basically never launch my car. I don't drag race and I don't race people from stoplights. So if the manual and automatic are going to give me roughly the same performance... ugh... tough decision. I did like the shifting action on the manual during my last test drive though.

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by motrek

since I basically never launch my car. I don't drag race and I don't race people from stoplights.

This sounds like my usage.


I test drove my AT. Then went home. The salesman could not believe that I wanted to think about a $26K purchase. Whatever. Anyway, I thought about it, and decided to get the AT. I personally could not be happier.


I can drive MT; I owned an S2000 for a couple years as my DD. In fact; I first read about the GT86 on the S2000 forum back in 2008. And, with a small yet usable back seat, RWD, and a price range that the average person can afford, it was destined to be my next (new) car.


I can get where all the MT guys are coming from, because IMO, if you own a 90's Honda/acura: It has to be MT to have fun with it. Stupid 4speed slush boxes. (I have owned 3 civics, 3 accords and 3 preludes. All MT.)


In comparison, the AT in a twin is like comparing apples to oranges. 6 gears, smooth shifts, the ability to shift it three ways, and it rev matches.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Apparently the AT tranny can handle 450 hp

[motrek]

Originally Posted by Leonardo

This sounds like my usage.

I test drove my AT. Then went home. The salesman could not believe that I wanted to think about a $26K purchase. Whatever. Anyway, I thought about it, and decided to get the AT. I personally could not be happier.

I can drive MT; I owned an S2000 for a couple years as my DD. In fact; I first read about the GT86 on the S2000 forum back in 2008. And, with a small yet usable back seat, RWD, and a price range that the average person can afford, it was destined to be my next (new) car.

I can get where all the MT guys are coming from, because IMO, if you own a 90's Honda/acura: It has to be MT to have fun with it. Stupid 4speed slush boxes. (I have owned 3 civics, 3 accords and 3 preludes. All MT.)

In comparison, the AT in a twin is like comparing apples to oranges. 6 gears, smooth shifts, the ability to shift it three ways, and it rev matches.

Yeah, manual can be fun, and it's an extra skill that you can practice and get good at, but on the other hand, why bother. It's becoming more and more of an anachronism. There are a bunch of supercars that you can't even buy with manual these days. I mean, if a dual-clutch setup requires less work and delivers better performance... and the days when you could get significantly better gas mileage with a manual vs. automatic are long gone, that was like 20+ years ago... Yeah, I like manuals and all, but who am I kidding, eventually it's just going to be old men yammering on about how they want to feel like they're "in control" of the car... Still probably going to buy the manual though but now I'm only like 80% on it, haha...

[DandoX]

to each their own, but you say you don't race people and don't drag race to stop lights but are so concerned with performance and speed in the 20-30 mph zone? You mentioned the need to have the performance to pass someone at 20 mph? Which is it?

Are you near some sort of back road where your going 20 mph but need to pass someone?

Personally from my perspective you appear to be an individual that is concerned with what others think, how you are perceived, and bragging rights. Those characteristics don't typically mesh well with the twins. Just so we are clear the forum has warned you, don't come back posting about how slow and shitty the 86 is and how you should have gotten a civic.

Also... where should I go to buy cheap parts? Where is ludwig to tell me what to do? :P

[motrek]

Originally Posted by DandoX

to each their own, but you say you don't race people and don't drag race to stop lights but are so concerned with performance and speed in the 20-30 mph zone? You mentioned the need to have the performance to pass someone at 20 mph? Which is it?

Are you near some sort of back road where your going 20 mph but need to pass someone?

Maybe I drive in more traffic than you do, or a denser city, or both. I'm often going 20 MPH, a small gap opens up in a neighboring lane, and I want to jump into that flow of traffic. So that's the utilitarian reason. You must live somewhere where this doesn't happen to you a lot, or you wouldn't be so confused about why it's important.

The other reason is if you're driving around town casually and coming out of a turn in 2nd and you want to lay into the throttle a little because it's fun to feel some acceleration. For as much as people on this forum like to talk about the "fun" and "enjoyment" of driving, you guys sure seem eager to downplay the fact that accelerating can be fun too. (As opposed to 99% of the rest of the car enthusiast community...)

Personally from my perspective you appear to be an individual that is concerned with what others think, how you are perceived,

I suppose, to some degree, in the sense that I don't want to drive a Civic. I mean, I like Honda, I know they're great cars, but for better or for worse they're also the #1 car for people who read Consumer Reports and don't know anything about cars and don't care about cars and don't care what they drive, and I'd prefer that people not mistakenly associate me with that group. So yeah, to some extent I do care what others think and about how I'm perceived, but I don't think it's to an unusual degree. Do you?

and bragging rights.

What bragging rights? I've never said a single word to indicate that I might be interested in bragging rights. The fact that you're ascribing this characteristic to me for literally no reason seems a bit insecure of you, no?

[accwai]

Originally Posted by DandoX

[...] Just so we are clear the forum has warned you, don't come back posting about how slow and shitty the 86 is and how you should have gotten a civic.

Staying with BMW is probably best option for the OP long term. Seriously.

[DandoX]

Originally Posted by motrek

What bragging rights? I've never said a single word to indicate that I might be interested in bragging rights. The fact that you're ascribing this characteristic to me for literally no reason seems a bit insecure of you, no?

Just that your so quick to counter with figures and specs and constantly in a state of defensiveness. I dunno buddy just my impression of you so far. I just imagine you selling your 86 in a year or so and complaing about various things folks have pointed out.

Either way man get whatever makes you happy, that's all that matters. Numbers and figures and this person said this or that is all pointless, all that matters is what you think and feel about your choice. Which is why this is such a pointless yet totally entertaining thread.

I'm interested in hearing what you end up getting and how you like it.