P0016 on a 60k mile car

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by rusty959

I'm wondering if thicker oil could help push these plates out of position, I was running thicker oil as well, 5W30 redline.

I'd love to hear from other confirmed cases of broken sprocket what oil was being ran.

I was on 10w30 when the light first came on, and then right after that switched to 0w20 as a first step. I'm in Chicago so can see this being a contributing cause in late November. Will still try to run 5 or 10w30 during the summer as I do track the car.

[Jamestl]

Originally Posted by kinghurl

Thought I'd contribute to this thread based on my current(ongoing) experience. Had this code 1 year ago and had the dealership change the OCV, then ECU and the issue went away for a year or so only to return. This time, had a mechanic friend at a dealership give me the skinny. I did the sensor swap check, he did the OCV swap check and issue stayed on the LHS, pointing to the sprockets. He took them apart and the little spring cover popped out as he was taking it apart, confirming in his mind that indeed the sprocket had failed. So FF to the sprocket change after which code came back within the 2nd drive cycle(code could be detected in the Pending list after the 1st drive cycle). He then indicated that the ECU needed to be changed, to which I challenged the notion. (That's what the repair manuals say to do.) I asked him to ask the Subaru Tech line about this(especially given ECU was just changed). They indicated that it_is_possible to not change the ECU and all will be ok, it just can take a couple thousand miles to register the new Cam values. That is the path I've taken-so I will report in a few(hopefully small few) thousand miles that all is well. For now I simply reset the code after the 1st drive cycle(pending code showing) . There is no longer a mechanical issue with the new (updated) sprockets, but the old values in the ECU are at odds with the faster responding new sprockets....ECU needs more time(allegedly) to realize that this is the new normal. My car is a 2013 BRZ. ECU already updated in 2016...I'm learning way more about this car than I planned. Car has had 3K mile oil changes-this is a flaw in the sprocket design, combined with an ECU that has an Elephant-like memory.

Thanks for the build here. Did you have have issues with the engine before the engine light popped back up? Does the engine feel different after replacing the cam sprocket?

I'm asking because i did the cam sensor + ECM swap and so far the light has stayed off, but the car seems to be running fine, but i don't know if there really might be an issue with the cam sprockets and I just can't tell with my driving...

Thanks again and good luck on the issue staying away for you!

[Ultramaroon]

I got Rusty's sprockets.



Working on getting the main valve apart I decided to drill a hole for a push pin to compress the inside clip. I had been studying it for a few days.

Today I took some pics to help myself figure out the best way to do it. I was going to use a dremel with a tiny diamond bit.

Then, while I was getting ready to upload the first image to post here, I zoomed in.

"Holy shit. I don't have to drill this."










Wish me luck.

[kinghurl]

Originally Posted by Jamestl

Thanks for the build here. Did you have have issues with the engine before the engine light popped back up? Does the engine feel different after replacing the cam sprocket?

I'm asking because i did the cam sensor + ECM swap and so far the light has stayed off, but the car seems to be running fine, but i don't know if there really might be an issue with the cam sprockets and I just can't tell with my driving...

Thanks again and good luck on the issue staying away for you!

So funny that you should ask this. The car "felt" fine and I saw an improvement in fuel mileage almost back to what it was before the light first came on. Not that I'm concerned about mileage, but on the long trips I frequently take, out of boredom, I've collected the mental notes about the fuel consumption.
Additionally, my car is competitively autocrossed-so it lives on the edge. Gets frequent(3K) oil changes and other anal maintenance steps. Before the cam change, I would simply clear the light and autocross and the car was simply spectacular. Since the change in the last 3 events I've run, the car seems to feel fine, but there has been a dramatic drop off in the results-so either I need to take up competitive knitting or tiddlywinks or something is amiss. Literally nothing else has changed-same ECU Tek tune, running the same fuel I've always run. The P0018 code still comes on, but I've been doing the same act-clearing the pending code and running the car. There is no mechanical issue now as the cam gears are fixed, but without the ECU change, I've been planning to just complete enough drive cycles to it to relearn the new behaviour. However based on the autox results over the 3 event since, I'm wondering if timing is being pulled anyway and am now seriously considering changing the ECU to get back to a high performance state. So long answer to your question-is yes, I think there is an impact to not changing the ECU. If the light stays off, I think you're in good shape, but in my case even though it "feels" good when the light is off(by simply clearing pending codes), performance is impacted.
Was planning to update thread after completing sufficient drive cycles, but I think I will be biting the bullet and changing the ECU. Will continue to update as I go. Will have to redo my ECU Tek licence on the new ECU, but that should be too painful.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by kinghurl

So funny that you should ask this. The car "felt" fine and I saw an improvement in fuel mileage almost back to what it was before the light first came on. Not that I'm concerned about mileage, but on the long trips I frequently take, out of boredom, I've collected the mental notes about the fuel consumption.
Additionally, my car is competitively autocrossed-so it lives on the edge. Gets frequent(3K) oil changes and other anal maintenance steps. Before the cam change, I would simply clear the light and autocross and the car was simply spectacular. Since the change in the last 3 events I've run, the car seems to feel fine, but there has been a dramatic drop off in the results-so either I need to take up competitive knitting or tiddlywinks or something is amiss. Literally nothing else has changed-same ECU Tek tune, running the same fuel I've always run. The P0018 code still comes on, but I've been doing the same act-clearing the pending code and running the car. There is no mechanical issue now as the cam gears are fixed, but without the ECU change, I've been planning to just complete enough drive cycles to it to relearn the new behaviour. However based on the autox results over the 3 event since, I'm wondering if timing is being pulled anyway and am now seriously considering changing the ECU to get back to a high performance state. So long answer to your question-is yes, I think there is an impact to not changing the ECU. If the light stays off, I think you're in good shape, but in my case even though it "feels" good when the light is off(by simply clearing pending codes), performance is impacted.
Was planning to update thread after completing sufficient drive cycles, but I think I will be biting the bullet and changing the ECU. Will continue to update as I go. Will have to redo my ECU Tek licence on the new ECU, but that should be too painful.

I think I mentioned this earlier on the thread, but could be elsewhere as well. I had a P0016. In my case, it was the sensor only, but thats not the important bit. If you are on a state where you can clear the code and it comes back after a while and the car "feels" fine, you probably are in the same state my car was in. That state is VVT is not working, at all. I noticed that at the one time attack I went with the issue, I lost by a 2 second margin to competitors I was beating comfortably before (1+ seconds). I though it was just me, and was considering picking up another hobby, until I looked at the data. Entry speeds to the straight were the same as previous days, but top speed at the end of the straight was 15km/h (9mph) less than it previously was, on a 450m straight. It took the mechanics a trip in the car with Ecutek plugged in to see it in action, VVT not adjusting at all.

Im sure the car just stops adjusting the VVT if either codes P0016 thru P0019 show up. The code seems to keep showing until whatever piece was defective is swapped out. Mind you that altho it probably was not related, the one time I used 5W30 oil, the car did this number on me, switched back to 0W20 and wont try my luck with it again (car is not overheating, so not fixing what aint broken).

Edit: also, for what is worth, he just swapped the 1 bad sensor, reset it on the ECM and I havent had a problem since (that was around 5k miles, 10 month and 13 track days ago).

[kinghurl]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

I think I mentioned this earlier on the thread, but could be elsewhere as well. I had a P0016. In my case, it was the sensor only, but thats not the important bit. If you are on a state where you can clear the code and it comes back after a while and the car "feels" fine, you probably are in the same state my car was in. That state is VVT is not working, at all. I noticed that at the one time attack I went with the issue, I lost by a 2 second margin to competitors I was beating comfortably before (1+ seconds). I though it was just me, and was considering picking up another hobby, until I looked at the data. Entry speeds to the straight were the same as previous days, but top speed at the end of the straight was 15km/h (9mph) less than it previously was, on a 450m straight. It took the mechanics a trip in the car with Ecutek plugged in to see it in action, VVT not adjusting at all.

Im sure the car just stops adjusting the VVT if either codes P0016 thru P0019 show up. The code seems to keep showing until whatever piece was defective is swapped out. Mind you that altho it probably was not related, the one time I used 5W30 oil, the car did this number on me, switched back to 0W20 and wont try my luck with it again (car is not overheating, so not fixing what aint broken).

Edit: also, for what is worth, he just swapped the 1 bad sensor, reset it on the ECM and I havent had a problem since (that was around 5k miles, 10 month and 13 track days ago).

That's great feedback from another racer. What did your mechanics log with the Ecutek? I can take a similar log tonight. You describe my exact scenario-pax in the top 10 consistently and since the change dropping into the 30s and 40s...seriously considered knitting. Will put the subscription to Knitting Weekly on hold.....for now. Thank you.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by kinghurl

That's great feedback from another racer. What did your mechanics log with the Ecutek? I can take a similar log tonight. You describe my exact scenario-pax in the top 10 consistently and since the change dropping into the 30s and 40s...seriously considered knitting. Will put the subscription to Knitting Weekly on hold.....for now. Thank you.

They were measuring the voltage from the sensors themself (dont know how, not a tuner myself), and then started looking at the timing advance from ECU and noticed that it was not moving at all, it was always asking for the same number. The number was not wild or oddly off, it was just not changing.

[Jamestl]

THank you all for the info. It’s unfortunate that we the owners have to solve shit like this but what can you do?

:/

[kinghurl]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

They were measuring the voltage from the sensors themself (dont know how, not a tuner myself), and then started looking at the timing advance from ECU and noticed that it was not moving at all, it was always asking for the same number. The number was not wild or oddly off, it was just not changing.

So I took a log last night. The images show the LHS and RHS intake VVT angle during a drive test. RPM range can be seen. Light was off during the test, but P0018 was likely pending and later in the test the CEL came on for P0018. My question is-it seems like the LHS and RHS are wildly different in terms of advance angles-is this "normal" or expected? Can someone post an image of their VVT Angles plotted from their NA car that doesn't have any issues. This is a 91 Octane tune.

[ermax]

With Techstream you can log VVT command vs VVT actual which will show you how off they are. But the left side and right side should be nearly identical.

[Ultramaroon]

Here you go. Bank 1 intake measured angles.


https://datazap.me/u/ultramaroon/log...g=0&data=29-38

[kinghurl]

Originally Posted by ermax

With Techstream you can log VVT command vs VVT actual which will show you how off they are. But the left side and right side should be nearly identical.

That's exactly what I would expect. Couldn't envision a scenario in which they'd be different. Especially to the degree seen in my plots. Thank you.

[kinghurl]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Here you go. Bank 1 intake, target and measured angles.

https://datazap.me/u/ultramaroon/log...g=0&data=11-17

Thank you. Do you have bank 1 and bank 2, so I could see them in operation? As previously suggested, I'd expect them to just about overlap.
So ECM change is next-just can't wait around for sufficient drive cycle completions to have ECM relearn.
Hopefully this debugging will help others understand.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by kinghurl

Thank you. Do you have bank 1 and bank 2, so I could see them in operation? As previously suggested, I'd expect them to just about overlap.
So ECM change is next-just can't wait around for sufficient drive cycle completions to have ECM relearn.
Hopefully this debugging will help others understand.

Yeah. Just go in and flip the displayed parameters by clicking. They do.