P0018 - what a disappointment this car has become

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Yes it did.

Not only did it, but he knows that, that is why he took the header back off and re-flashed to stock tune in an attempt to defraud.

Originally Posted by Chronology

Can you point out in Toyota or Subaru documentation that an ECU/ECM flash or tune would retain your warranty?


My experience - Honda, Toyota, MB, BMW all took away my warranty as soon as a flash was done.

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Yes, it voids warranty with every car manufacturer. Everyone, even OP knows this.

Every 3 or 6 months we go through this exercise...

Here's some facts for you to digest:

• "Void" and "denied coverage" are two different things. I can't speak for Toyota, but when I had my BRZ "void warranty" meant the car was destroyed or both Subaru and I agreed to void the warranty as a legal contract. Otherwise, any modifications would fall into the "denied coverage" portion of warranty.
• Just because I do a mod doesn't mean I lose my warranty coverage (overall), it simply means it may impact my coverage on the part(s) in question if the modification contributed to the part failure.
• Don't use the term "void" because even if you mod the crap out of your car, you don't lose warranty coverage on your car. Kind of like if you go skydiving, you don't lose your life insurance coverage, but if you die from said skydiving incident, it's an out clause depending on whether it was written into your contract or not.

The point is, OP didn't lose coverage, he just may not be eligible for it. On that note...


I need to make a correction to my post above. OP is technically not eligible for coverage and it has nothing to do with his parts. It has to do with the tech and the interpretation of the part(s) being repaired.

P0018 involves a bad sensor. Part of the diagnosis process eventually leads to other sensors and the ECU, but the first part is that a sensor is bad.

If someone looked at it from the approach that it was a sensor issue, his car is long beyond the warranty coverage period for that (electronics are NOT covered under the Powertrain warranty). Standard bumper to bumper is 3 years or 36k miles, and electronics are under the base warranty and not powertrain.

So after all said and done, OP is mad over nothing. His repair wasn't even covered...

https://www.subaru.com/owners/vehicl...ties-2016.html

[Chronology]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Yes, it voids warranty with every car manufacturer. Everyone, even OP knows this.

That was my point.

[Boofneenee]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Every 3 or 6 months we go through this exercise...

Here's some facts for you to digest:

• "Void" and "denied coverage" are two different things. I can't speak for Toyota, but when I had my BRZ "void warranty" meant the car was destroyed or both Subaru and I agreed to void the warranty as a legal contract. Otherwise, any modifications would fall into the "denied coverage" portion of warranty.
• Just because I do a mod doesn't mean I lose my warranty coverage (overall), it simply means it may impact my coverage on the part(s) in question if the modification contributed to the part failure.
• Don't use the term "void" because even if you mod the crap out of your car, you don't lose warranty coverage on your car. Kind of like if you go skydiving, you don't lose your life insurance coverage, but if you die from said skydiving incident, it's an out clause depending on whether it was written into your contract or not.

The point is, OP didn't lose coverage, he just may not be eligible for it. On that note...


I need to make a correction to my post above. OP is technically not eligible for coverage and it has nothing to do with his parts. It has to do with the tech and the interpretation of the part(s) being repaired.

P0018 involves a bad sensor. Part of the diagnosis process eventually leads to other sensors and the ECU, but the first part is that a sensor is bad.

If someone looked at it from the approach that it was a sensor issue, his car is long beyond the warranty coverage period for that (electronics are NOT covered under the Powertrain warranty). Standard bumper to bumper is 3 years or 36k miles, and electronics are under the base warranty and not powertrain.

So after all said and done, OP is mad over nothing. His repair wasn't even covered...

https://www.subaru.com/owners/vehicl...ties-2016.html

nailed it.

FYI. The ECU IS covered under the warranty and my ECU was replaced 2x during the repairs. Here is a clip and paste from the manual for proof from the limited power train warranty:

Engine
Cylinder block and head and all
internal parts, timing gears and
gaskets, timing chain/belt and cover,
flywheel, valve covers, oil pan, oil
pump, engine mounts, turbocharger
housing and all internal parts, super
charger housing and all internal parts,
engine control computer, water pump,
fuel pump, seals and gaskets.

The cam sensor is also covered under warranty

[steve99]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Exactly, this is what I am saying. You didn't have a serious issue, because you were stock. If you had an aftermarket tune, then the probability to have a real problem and a broken engine would be much higher. So, you can still enjoy your car and I hope to enjoy it past the 100k mile limit.

I have a reason to write all these. There are many tuners in Japan which are much more conservative than their Western counterparts. I was discussing lately with an engine manufacturer and tuner who is studying our engines for years. What they suggested was to keep it stock! They make an ECU tuning only if they change the internals. Why? Because they prefer to be honest and to avoid issues than to sell more.

Hmmm


Just remember Japan has much better fuel than places like California 91 or Australian South Africa or lots of places in Asia.


Here is a log of a STOCK car on STOCK tune south Africa fuel, out Australian fuel is about same ie crap.


Knock correction of over -3 degrees and also note the IAM is 0.2


http://www.datazap.me/u/steve99/sout...2-20-28&solo=2




versus a tuned car


http://www.datazap.me/u/steve99/e85-...11-13-15-20-26




I know which one I would prefer :-)

[Lantana frs]

Was the motor pulled? 6 grand seems kinda high.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

What the heck do those charts mean? Lol. Which one is good, which one is bad?

[Lantana frs]

That stock tune s africa car must have been a slug.

[DirtySouth86]

Actually, federal law mandates that the catalytic converter(s) and engine control computers for vehicles 1995 and newer are warrantied by the vehicle manufacturer for 8 years or 80,000 miles (whichever occurs first) from the original in service date of the vehicle. On those 2 items, it does not matter what the original bumper to bumper or powertrain warranty periods are, because they are covered regardless.


I am sure that altering the software could cause this to be nullified though.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

What the heck do those charts mean? Lol. Which one is good, which one is bad?

The charts are data logs. The first chart is the stock tune. If you look at FLKC, you can see a few instances where it drops to -3.00 and below, particularly in the 6800-7000 RPM range. FLKC is the amount of ignition timing in degrees the ECU has learned to subtract (or add back if positive) based on the amount of detonation it has seen over an extended period of time. So -3.00 FLKC or worse would be indicative of fairly significant detonation in that RPM range. IAM also hovers around 0.20 (ideally would be 1.00), so the ECU clearly isn't happy with the amount of detonation it's seeing and is pulling a lot of timing universally (not just in specific RPM ranges and loads).

The second chart is the aftermarket tune. FLKC and IAM look much better in that log, so that shows the engine is running much better (and safer) given the poor quality fuel in SA.

These are simplified explanations but there's a lot of detailed information in the links in steve99's signature. Check them out if you're trying to learn more.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by steve99

Hmmm

Just remember Japan has much better fuel than places like California 91 or Australian South Africa or lots of places in Asia.

Here is a log of a STOCK car on STOCK tune south Africa fuel, out Australian fuel is about same ie crap.

Knock correction of over -3 degrees and also note the IAM is 0.2

http://www.datazap.me/u/steve99/sout...2-20-28&solo=2

versus a tuned car

http://www.datazap.me/u/steve99/e85-...11-13-15-20-26

I know which one I would prefer :-)

Are the 2 tunes on the same car and same fuel quality?

[steve99]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Are the 2 tunes on the same car and same fuel quality?

No not same car

one stock on stock tune other with header and tune etc.


The point was to demonstrate that the stock car on the stock tune is not that good, especially on fuel of lower quality than whats found in Japan.

and that you can have a modded car with a tune, that runs way better than the stock tune.


but you can tune out the knock on a stock car on our fuels and get a car that runs better smoother and with slightly more power.

unfortunatly most people add a header when they get tune.

here is a car on same quality petrol as first car but on modded tune with header, again IAM now one, its not constantly getting significant knock correction like stock tune, doesnt run super rich high rpm like stock tune.

note on the stock tune log the 02 sensor is only scaled down to 12.1 afr that why the afr measures flat line on stock tune compared to the commanded afr. In the tuned cars the 02 sensor is rescaled to read correctly down to 10 afr.



http://www.datazap.me/u/steve99/jj-a...zoom=2469-2658




Stock cars run super rich (well 2012-2016, they sorted this out on the 2017 it runns about 12.3 afr not 10.7 like the older tunes stock). If you want to see the true afr on a stock tune car you need to use tailpipe 02 sensor.

below is stock car dyno with tailpipe afr measurement

[FR-Sky]

I understand the warranty is frustrating. I have been through a couple warranty issue with my 2013 as well. (axle nut, clutch pedal, HPFP) Luckily I got those covered without too much hassle.

Hope you get it solves and move on and pursuit your happiness with your future car.

[Boofneenee]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The charts are data logs. The first chart is the stock tune. If you look at FLKC, you can see a few instances where it drops to -3.00 and below, particularly in the 6800-7000 RPM range. FLKC is the amount of ignition timing in degrees the ECU has learned to subtract (or add back if positive) based on the amount of detonation it has seen over an extended period of time. So -3.00 FLKC or worse would be indicative of fairly significant detonation in that RPM range. IAM also hovers around 0.20 (ideally would be 1.00), so the ECU clearly isn't happy with the amount of detonation it's seeing and is pulling a lot of timing universally (not just in specific RPM ranges and loads).

The second chart is the aftermarket tune. FLKC and IAM look much better in that log, so that shows the engine is running much better (and safer) given the poor quality fuel in SA.

These are simplified explanations but there's a lot of detailed information in the links in steve99's signature. Check them out if you're trying to learn more.

i dont feel that the environmental conditions for the stock tune are fair. IAM 0.2? FLCK -3.0? pulling a lot of timing. Something must have happened,.. driving really hard?

I cant understand how this is a fair comparison..

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Boofneenee

i dont feel that the environmental conditions for the stock tune are fair. IAM 0.2? FLCK -3.0? pulling a lot of timing. Something must have happened,.. driving really hard?

I cant understand how this is a fair comparison..

Those aren't my logs so I can't comment much other than steve99 said they were from a stock tune car in South Africa where the fuel quality is apparently piss poor. Combined with the hotter temperatures there I can believe that log. A few years ago Toyota South Africa was one of the first regional locations to release a TSB/reflash for detonation resulting from the aggressive stock transient ignition timing these cars used to come with. Their low grade fuel must really expose bad tunes quickly.