P0018 - what a disappointment this car has become

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Clipdat

Oh interesting, we're at about the same, I'm at like 18,400 on my '13.

My commute to work is super short (~2.5 miles each way), so although it gets driven every day during the week, it's those dang super short extra wear inducing short trips. The ones that the owner's manual describes as "severe use" or whatever.

Yep, I hear that ...... but, I figure the car will outlast my ability to drive it ......


humfrz

[imnotsureaboutbrz]

Originally Posted by Boofneenee

Thanks

I truly am fortunate enough to get my car back in working order. I'm just livid that I now feel pressured go sell it to prevent further headaches.

I just want other owners to read this and be careful. Do something before your warranty expires or take the gamble.

So... just that we are clear... your were running a open flash header, and tune. Put your factory header back on, reflashed the stock tune and the dealer didn't notice and the warranty claim eventually worked out...?

[dostoyevsky]

Originally Posted by imnotsureaboutbrz

So... just that we are clear... your were running a open flash header, and tune. Put your factory header back on, reflashed the stock tune and the dealer didn't notice and the warranty claim eventually worked out...?

Dealerships usually can't detect or don't notice tunes on the car if its OFT

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Things like these scare me off the whole OFT and header route or messing with the engine in general. Some FI kits offer additional warranty and that's worth looking into, otherwise you're in open water. Considering how much money I spent fixing my last car, I don't want to spend anything on this one, which is why I bought it new and with warranty. So I'm hoping the '17 has all these niggles worked out

[DarkSunrise]

Definitely understandable to be mad but at least it was covered under warranty. Although I don't get why your service rep threatened that it wouldn't be covered -- would have sucked to pay a $6k bill. Only reason I can see is the header/tune perhaps.

For me, my 2013 model FR-S has been reliable even with ~2000 hard track miles (about half of those were with tune/header), but my bone stock 2011 GTI has needed some big repairs (water pump, HPFP, fuel injector, etc.) I was past the powertrain warranty but luckily VW extended the warranty on certain parts. That's one car I'm glad I didn't mod.

[ls1ac]

Ok I am old and I take responsibility for my actions. If I buy a car that is too small for what I want to hall it is not the cars fault. If I buy a car that does not have the power that I want it is not the cars fault. If I modify the cars engine and programing I know that ANY resulting problem is on me. You put the car back to stock so the dealer would not know it had been modified.
You are blaming the car the dealer and the manufacturer for your choices.
I too have a 2013. I drive the car in the summer and do track it and have modified it with no problems so far, but if and when the engine goes bad I will take responsibility.

[Kimsey47]

I'm interested to know if your OFT (or any other type of gauge you had available) was providing you some sort of information that your were experiencing knock with the tune you were on? It seems that there would have been signs that could have helped you realize something wasn't right that may lead to failure?

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Boofneenee

The hate stems mostly from the cars lower power and being unpractical. The car being unpractical i ignored and made do. I purchased a 2015 WRX to resolve the capacity issue and I use snow tires on the FRS during the winter.

So you didn't know what you were buying?

Originally Posted by Boofneenee

And still, this piece of shit has destroyed my faith in the platform. I no longer will ever feel safe owning this car. The warranty is over in August.. will this code come back? read up on the error.. its a goddamn rats nest of problems. People can never find the solution. THe code comes back and back and whose fault is it? the owner who puts on an exhaust or uses a canned and common tune? ?? no.. its the goddamn manufacturers and your stuck footing the bill.

My Subaru dealer doesn't have an issue to install certain parts, but he is very clear on this: NO CHIP TUNING, NO ENGINE TUNING! He was very strict on this. Additionally, such an action automatically voids the warranty.

So, you pretended to your dealer that you had a stock car, the manufacturer paid the bill and now you are calling the car a piece of shit and blame the manufacturer? Try to get a lesson from this and get rid of the real crap! You know what it is.

And I mentioned it elsewhere too. Your warranty will never finish. Many parts were designed to have a specific timeline. If this timeline is not over and you have an issue, then you can still claim to compensate. Why do you think manufacturers are fixing defective parts even on cars that are 10+ years old?

[thomasmryan]

the 'valve drum assembly' is $108 at liberty city Subaru so not terrible. paying 6k to replace a hundred dollar part seems slightly out of scope.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by ls1ac

Ok I am old and I take responsibility for my actions. If I buy a car that is too small for what I want to hall it is not the cars fault. If I buy a car that does not have the power that I want it is not the cars fault. If I modify the cars engine and programing I know that ANY resulting problem is on me. You put the car back to stock so the dealer would not know it had been modified.
You are blaming the car the dealer and the manufacturer for your choices.
I too have a 2013. I drive the car in the summer and do track it and have modified it with no problems so far, but if and when the engine goes bad I will take responsibility.

While I share the same sentiment as you about returning cars to stock before warranty work, it's important not to jump to the conclusion that the tune/header was the cause of the problem. Actually most of the P0018 threads seem to point to the opposite conclusion - it can happen on stock cars. Appears to be an issue/failure with the OEM hardware of some cars (although an aftermarket tune may bring the issue to light quicker). Interestingly doesn't look to be isolated to 2013 cars either - some 2014's have had the issue.

Pretty good explanation of the problem at 4:40 in this video:

[ame]http://youtu.be/7iw1Pdln8eI?t=4m35s[/ame]

And some threads about it:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81258
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110054
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104695
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97944

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

And some threads about it:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81258
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110054
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104695
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97944

Many times a manufacturer revise a part to increase the safe limit. It is not because the part is defective and tries to hide something. What do you think to be more expensive for them? To replace a part or to re-build the whole engine?

I also checked most of the threads you mentioned. The majority had a tune or even a S/C. I 'm not saying that a stock car will never broke, especially if the engine is on the 1st year of its production. It is just that the chances are much much smaller.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Many times a manufacturer revise a part to increase the safe limit. Not because there is a real issue. If there was a big issue on stock cars, then you would see a change of all the defective parts. What do you think to be more expensive for them? To replace a part or to re-build the whole engine?

I also checked most of the threads you mentioned. The majority had a tune or even a S/C. I 'm not saying that a stock car will never broke, especially if the engine is on the 1st year of its production. It is just that the chances are much much smaller if it remains stock.

I'm not saying it's a big issue on stock cars, I'm saying it has proven to be a possible failure point even on stock cars. I think I remember at least two stock cars in those threads. I'm not an expert but a lot of guys who have a lot of experience tuning this car (MRT, AVO, steve99, nelsmar) seem to agree it's not a tune-related issue. I think it's also interesting that someone with a tuned car had the dealership look over his car to fix the issue and the Subaru SM agreed to cover it under warranty. I doubt you'd see that if this was primarily a tune-related issue.

I've got no skin in this fight, I'm just relaying the same conclusion reached by all the knowledgeable people who've looked into this issue. If you've got proof that this is caused by aftermarket tuning, I'd be happy to see it.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

While I share the same sentiment as you about returning cars to stock before warranty work, it's important not to jump to the conclusion that the tune/header was the cause of the problem. Actually most of the P0018 threads seem to point to the opposite conclusion - it can happen on stock cars. Appears to be an issue/failure with the OEM hardware of some cars (although an aftermarket tune may bring the issue to light quicker). Interestingly doesn't look to be isolated to 2013 cars either - some 2014's have had the issue.

Pretty good explanation of the problem at 4:40 in this video:

And some threads about it:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81258
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110054
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104695
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97944

This. I experienced this problem with my own car early on in ownership while my car was still bone stock. I was a bit worried about warranty coverage because the bumper to bumper had just run out and I had already tracked the car a few times prior to the issue coming up and the dealership was aware of all this but I took my car in the next morning before work and was able to pick it up that day after work, repaired under warranty, with no problem since.

I take my car in for routine oil changes and service intervals. It's not because I can't do it myself but it helps me build a good relationship with the people at my dealership. Because of this, I'm on a first name basis with all of the front desk guys and the mechanic who works on my car and it's a lot easier to get these guys to go to bat for you over a warranty issue when they know you.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Boofneenee

Theit shouldn't be pikes of shit dished out to someone with a 13 model when things go wrong. Those pieces of shit néed to own up when they fuck up and not stick it to enthusiasts of their product.

What really sucks is this should have been a 2-4 day fix tops with zero hassle from your dealership.

A shitty dealership experience turned what should have been a bad few days into a fucking miserable month, and I'm sorry that happened to you.

That bill they came up with is outrageous, along with how they treated you, the labor time for the full procedure is <8 hours, OCV is <$75, an ECM is <$500 and a cam sprocket is <$250, even if they charge you for replacing it all twice and doing the labor twice that bill should be <$3.5k. Realistically it should have been on the order of <$2k to complete the diagnosis and repair presuming cam gear and ECM needed replacement.

Ultimately, I don't blame the car or Toyota engineers, problems happen to absolutely everyone out there, whether it's a Honda Civic, Toyota Camry or Koenigsegg, it is fixable. Sensors fail, ECU's glitch, bad oil control valves slip past QC, techs make mistakes, engineers make judgement calls that end up in an error. No car is perfect, pick your poison. For every BMW that's had three engine replacements under 100k miles there's a bunch out there that will take a beating past 200k miles without issue.

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I 'm not saying that a stock car will never broke, especially if the engine is on the 1st year of its production. It is just that the chances are much much smaller.

I have a car built 12/12, in January of 2015 at ~30k miles I got P0011 at the track on a totally stock car (except tires and brakes). It falls into the same TSB that was applied to OP's car involving the Intake VVT. While many like to hypothesize that tuning and exhaust puts higher stress on the rest of the system creating failures, I just don't believe it. A TSB is never issued for a problem vastly related to aftermarket. It also applies to the base Impreza.

I cleared it, continued my track day and it has not returned in two+ years, another track day since then, and two seasons of autox and I'm over 57k miles with no issue. If it came back I'd follow the TSB myself, I wouldn't even bother the dealership except to cross shop parts. Replacing the camshaft gear would suck, but the rest ain't so bad. At this point the only thing that would make me hate my car would be powertrain issues that reoccur in <100k miles.



My parents current cars have both had their engines rebuilt at under 20k miles, now that would have me worried. But both of them are incredibly happy with their dealer support so they'll keep their cars likely past when the warranty runs out.