Do any of you road racers or time trial guys use a strut tower bar?

[Sleepless]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

You sure it isn't a placebo effect? I'd want something I spent money on to make a difference too. So how much stiffer does a strut bar make the chassis on this car?

Took it off to make sure it wasn't placebo. Wanted it back on.

Also, I don't have hard data to back it up, but I did one track day with it off, and I had some minor traction issues (I don't recall exact specifics). Put it back one, no traction issues.

Note, I have a half cage in the car, which accentuates the effect of the strut bar. I've experienced this on the BRZ and on my previous E36 M3 which had a full cage and driving the car with and without the strut brace was like night and day on that car (but, as you mentioned earlier, different cars benefit more than others and our cars already have reasonably good strut braces from the factory so the extra bar is not going to be as effective as on a car with no braces at all like the M3).

As I've said before, the bar is cheap compared to the costs of tracking these cars that I have a hard time with how much attention these bars get on all car forums! This debate has been repeated SO many times.

If strut tower bracing didn't work, why do our cars come with them? Car companies try to save every penny possible when building cars; the cheaper the car the more they want to cut costs. Given that Toyota/Subaru spent the time and money to throw the two braces in the car tells me that the car needs at least the cheap bracing it comes with. If I'm going to put on the extra forces of track driving (20 ish track events a year), with much stickier tires and stiffer suspension, and driving over track curbing, then a $150 strut brace is a no brainer. Even if you don't feel it, I'd wager it reduces the flex enough to make the towers last longer.

[gramicci101]

I never said bracing wasn't necessary. Clearly it is, or the manufacturer wouldn't have added it. But if what they added wasn't sufficient, then they would have added more until it was. Reading through GrimmSpeed's thread, the maximum deflection they saw was 0.081 inches. The OEM bars cut that by about 50%, or to about 0.04 inches. Their bar with the OEM bars cut the max number by about 90%, which would be to about 0.008 inches. Can you really tell a difference between 4 hundredths of an inch (OEM bars) and 8 thousandths of an inch (OEM and strut bar)? Is it mathematically stiffer? Certainly; it's reduced measured deflection by 90%. Is 0.032 fewer inches enough to have any practical value? Not really. That's the only thing I've been saying.

I remember mrk1's comments after he welded in his trunk crossbar, before he went to a full cage. There are definitely places on this chassis that could be improved with additional bracing. I'd rather put my money towards something that does have a significant effect, and when everything else has been done, then buy a strut bar.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The math will tell you much more than people's first hand experiences. Humans are shit data collecting devices. We can't figure out placebo from any real effects, especially when changes are subtle (like with a strut bar). Look at grimmspeed's data for their bar. Sure looks like it's effective, bravo them, it's an effective part and they met their design goals. But a lot of people still don't feel the difference.

-Josh

Really? I make a living giving companies feedback. If my feedback wasn't accurate or useful, I wouldn't be employed.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Sleepless

Given that at least one of the "experts" is wrong about the forces exerted on the towers when going with a stiffer suspension, I'd rather go with sound theory personally, and I did and can feel the difference. Am I faster? Hardly. But the car feels better to me.

Because the bracing changed the resonant frequency affecting NVH.

Even on my old 1990 Miata track car, ON TRACK, I couldn't tell the difference between having a strut bar AND fender braces vs not.

On the street, yeah, it reduced cowl shake. On track. No effect on grip or lap times.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Really? I make a living giving companies feedback. If my feedback wasn't accurate or useful, I wouldn't be employed.

I was generalizing, sorry. If you do this for a living you must be skilled enough as a driver obviously. I meant that most people who buy a strut bar will have a hard time noticing its effects, just like most people cannot feel the ~7hp bump from an intake. Won't stop the majority of them saying they do to justify their purchase though.

-Josh

[Racecomp Engineering]

It wouldn't be a car message board if there wasn't a multi-page thread on strut tower bars...complete with strong opinions, poorly understood physics, and third-hand anecdotes.

Get some strain gauges (they're cheap), spend time running some tests, and then realize that adding a strut bar on top of the OEM braces is not going to measurably impact your track times either way but may change NVH and steering feel such that some deem it an improvement and some won't notice.

I have a strut bar and fender braces on my personal (non-BRZ) car for NVH reasons and because they were cheap. Steering feel was improved very slightly. The BRZ is a much stiffer chassis but I can still tell when a strut bar has been added. It's fine.

- Andrew

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Norville Rogers

And they are all bolted to the existing cheap bolts/studs. How much deflection in those?

Have you ever checked the factory torque values of these bolts? Check and then you *might* understand what was the intention of using them.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Norville Rogers

In life there's builders and those that piss on the buildings.

Maybe in your world there are a lot people pissing buildings.


As of construction, there are builders and engineers. The ones are building and the others are designing and providing instructions. Same in racing, there are race drivers who many times don't have a clue of the internals and there the engineers that design the whole car. All the rest is BS.


Here is how professional teams work. Regarding the body rigidity, they have a four-wheel vibration test which allows to measure the transmissibility of input from road surfaces to certain points on the vehicle. By adjusting the suspension settings or adding devices, they can see how such transmissibility varies.


－Do you mean that it is also possible to measure the effects of STI original parts such as the Flexible Draw Stiffener?
Sakata: We can clearly see the effects. If you apply tension on the cross member with the Flexible Draw Stiffener, the car starts turning as soon as you steer, so yes, we can numerically understand this effect of the Flexible Draw Stiffener. At the same time, the Flexible Draw Tower Bar, which we installed in last year’s Nürburgring car, enhances the effect of steering. We can confirm this advantage in the data, so we know that it will work in the same way this year too, although the mounting method and shape of the bar has changed for this year’s car.

Source: http://www.subaru-msm.com/global/news2014/15006.html

[Pat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Maybe in your world there are a lot people pissing buildings.


As of construction, there are builders and engineers. The ones are building and the others are designing and providing instructions. Same in racing, there are race drivers who many times don't have a clue of the internals and there the engineers that design the whole car. All the rest is BS.


Here is how professional teams work. Regarding the body rigidity, they have a four-wheel vibration test which allows to measure the transmissibility of input from road surfaces to certain points on the vehicle. By adjusting the suspension settings or adding devices, they can see how such transmissibility varies.


－Do you mean that it is also possible to measure the effects of STI original parts such as the Flexible Draw Stiffener?
Sakata: We can clearly see the effects. If you apply tension on the cross member with the Flexible Draw Stiffener, the car starts turning as soon as you steer, so yes, we can numerically understand this effect of the Flexible Draw Stiffener. At the same time, the Flexible Draw Tower Bar, which we installed in last year’s Nürburgring car, enhances the effect of steering. We can confirm this advantage in the data, so we know that it will work in the same way this year too, although the mounting method and shape of the bar has changed for this year’s car.

Source: http://www.subaru-msm.com/global/news2014/15006.html

I specifically started this thread because I was not satisfied with other threads talking about theory and non-performance (i.e. lap time) related benefits. I wanted to hear from people that actually race and get their feedback. It seems to me like almost all of the people here that actually race don't see any significant benefit from strut tower bars while racing. I think we can leave it at that.
Again, thanks for everyone's feedback on this. It was very helpful.

[nikitopo]

Theory and results can go together, unless you are dealing with cheaters or with people who are dreaming to build something else. Most of the people who are racing and answered here have installed a S/C or a turbo. Personally, I wouldn't trust such guys on a handling question. There are a lot of steps on maximizing the handling of this car and few people in this forum have an idea about it. Have fun!

[Tcoat]

1) The professional drivers tell what they want.
2) Engineers design what they think will work.
3) The drivers tell them if it worked or not.
4) Start again at step one. Repeat as necessary.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Pat

I specifically started this thread because I was not satisfied with other threads talking about theory and non-performance (i.e. lap time) related benefits. I wanted to hear from people that actually race and get their feedback. It seems to me like almost all of the people here that actually race don't see any significant benefit from strut tower bars while racing. I think we can leave it at that.
Again, thanks for everyone's feedback on this. It was very helpful.

Sorry if my post came across as grumpy...you asked a legitimate question. My post was more about some of the responses.

- Andrew

[Pat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Personally, I wouldn't trust such guys on a handling question.

You can't be serious. The higher the power to weight ratio is the more important handling becomes. People that race know it's the total package that counts.
This thread has gone off the rails.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Theory and results can go together, unless you are dealing with cheaters or with people who are dreaming to build something else. Most of the people who are racing and answered here have installed a S/C or a turbo. Personally, I wouldn't trust such guys on a handling question. There are a lot of steps on maximizing the handling of this car and few people in this forum have an idea about it. Have fun!

What does adding power have to do with discussing handling characteristics?