S2000 or BRZ, I want your personal opinions

[s2_slow]

Originally Posted by Boxer 86

Well I just did a little R&D for you on the good old GT5

Setup specs:

Playseats Evolution GP seat and stand
Logitec G27 with mounted H gate shifter (everything bolted to the seat/stand)
26" 1080p (~5' from seating position)
Both cars ran with sports hard tires (comparable to a high-performance all season)
Manual, no driver Aids exc abs set to 1
Tire wear & fuel consumption on
Grip reduction @ track edge real
Mechanical damage high

Three laps for best time

I just sent the '06 S2000 and '12 86 GT around Spa-Franchorchamps and here is the result I came up with:

S2000- 1:55.678
86 GT- 1:59.241

Spa is a track that favors higher- horsepower cars and accordingly the S2k had about 40 more with ~1000 more rpm to play with. Off the bat, the car is quicker. The 86 GT is no slouch though, it will come out of corners with as much brunt. Now, the S2k was the harder car to drive fast. Why? For starters, it is a convertible so right away rigitity is sacrificed and the need for a stiffer suspension is critical. However, the suspension is so stiffly sprung, the car has some nasty oversteer habits. This is in the form of both off-throttle-snap-oversteer and initial turn-in oversteer after braking. The only time I encountered on-throttle oversteer is after a small-radius corner that usually involved second gear cornering. So in general the car has mixed-emotions with it's own suspension, ranging from stiff and precision cornering to dogging the rear out as if I meant to throw it out. The next problem with the Honda was the power band. If I was not in Vtec, the car was slow moving and slow accelerating. Now, this did not happen very often since the track was more of a high-speed high-rpm course, but there were times where I was waiting for the car to get moving again.

Now for the 86 GT: this car is pure joy. Yea the s2000 was fast, but I had to fight the car more than I just drove it. With the 86, I could drive the car flat out every corner. There were corners that I could balls out go through that in the s2k I had to be gentel in otherwise I would be fighting the car in oversteer. The 86 was 3.563 s slower around the whole course, but I never had a moment of 'oh shit'. I felt happy every corner and I would prefer the 86 over the s2000 on the track for that reason. In stock trim, obviously the s2000 is going to be faster. I'm pretty sure we could all have guessed that one off the bat. But since when has driving cars for the numbers ever really been the main goal of the experience?

If I were you, I would just take the BRZ, and love the new car for what it is. You will eventually get annoyed with certain apects of the s2000 that can be avoided with the BRZ. It happens to everyone. There are certain things I have to deal with at times in the FC, primarily if I ever want to take a third person along, it just simply cannot happen. Now the trade off is I have a ton of cargo space. But there are times that I wish for refinement and other things, and that is why when I have the money, it will be spent on getting a BRZ and making the FC into a track day special. I can love more comfortably every day with the BRZ than I could the FC, just as you will find with the S2k.

Now you can take this all for what it's worth, just being a video game, but aim a believer that you can feel real world results just from blasting around the track in a sim such as gran truismo, granted you have all the right gear. My gear is about mid-range compared to what I could be using, but the results are still great.

The "oh shit moments" are what makes driving on track fun. Dont get me wrong, a super neutral car will be fun as well but extracting every ounce of speed from an ultra responsive car is whats driving fast is all about. That being said you will find the frs drives more like the s2000 as its chassis is tuned for more neutral/oversteer where the subaru is tuned to be more mild. There is a great video that depicts this.

ç*‘波サーã‚*ットアタックbyä¸*谷明彦 86/BRZ比較 - YouTube

You can see how the subaru plows through turns and the frs has a far greater turn in and mid corner malleability, and oh yeah the frs was also faster.

[Boxer 86]

yea but that was on a small track. On a longer track the BRZ takes the cake. I forget what magazine it was but it was an ft86club feature and the BRZ outran the FRS bc it was more neutral.

[fatoni]

i love how all people ever talk about when the thing is compared to an actually fast car is how it is so much fun. then when compared with a car with similar performance the forum goes right back to "this is faster"

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by s2_slow

If only toyota could have stayed true to its roots and developed their own 2.0 with individual throttle bodies and like an 8500rpm redline making even 220 hp this car would have been perfect from the factory.

I like to think of this engine as coming from the factory de-tuned. Only 100hp/liter seems low by Japanese performance standards. They expected this car to modified. Remember the S2k had 9k rpms which is wonderful but it was GUTLESS under vtec (former AP1 owner). In fact it was that specific reason they switched to the 2.2 in 2004.

Originally Posted by s2_slow

I think the frs could have been better/faster than the s2000

It is, sort of. Do the math.

The s2000 MSRP'd for $32-33k and there were big markups at first. The real reason the S2000 is faster than the FRS is because 2 things and 2 things only. Tires and HP. If you put the OEM S2000 tires (Potenza S-03) on the FRS with identical staggered sizes as the s2k and added 40hp, do you think the FRS would be as fast as the S2k? I do, and those things can be done for a hell of a lot less than $33,000! Plus you get more storage room, more torque, more speakers, more passengers and better fuel economy; all with $$ left over.

So you see, it would have been easy for the FRS to be faster from the factory than the S2k, but then it wouldn't have MSRP'd at $24,900. So to make this car as fast as the s2k from the factory would have made it cost more (and there's lots of people who are happy with the 200hp) and thus they would have sold fewer cars to fewer people at the same margin.

Say it with me folks... Cost Benefit Analysis.

In this case, the consumer won.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I like to think of this engine as coming from the factory de-tuned. Only 100hp/liter seems low by Japanese performance standards. They expected this car to modified. Remember the S2k had 9k rpms which is wonderful but it was GUTLESS under vtec (former AP1 owner). In fact it was that specific reason they switched to the 2.2 in 2004.



It is, sort of. Do the math.

The s2000 MSRP'd for $32-33k and there were big markups at first. The real reason the S2000 is faster than the FRS is because 2 things and 2 things only. Tires and HP. If you put the OEM S2000 tires (Potenza S-03) on the FRS with identical staggered sizes as the s2k and added 40hp, do you think the FRS would be as fast as the S2k? I do, and those things can be done for a hell of a lot less than $33,000! Plus you get more storage room, more torque, more speakers, more passengers and better fuel economy; all with $$ left over.

So you see, it would have been easy for the FRS to be faster from the factory than the S2k, but then it wouldn't have MSRP'd at $24,900. So to make this car as fast as the s2k from the factory would have made it cost more (and there's lots of people who are happy with the 200hp) and thus they would have sold fewer cars to fewer people at the same margin.

Say it with me folks... Cost Benefit Analysis.

In this case, the consumer won.

100hp/liter low? can you name me another current japanese car that has more?

and if you can say the frs is better than the s2k because if it had better power and wheels, i can just as easily say that my 94 miata is better than the both of them and it only cost me 3500

[s2_slow]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I like to think of this engine as coming from the factory de-tuned. Only 100hp/liter seems low by Japanese performance standards. They expected this car to modified. Remember the S2k had 9k rpms which is wonderful but it was GUTLESS under vtec (former AP1 owner). In fact it was that specific reason they switched to the 2.2 in 2004.



It is, sort of. Do the math.

The s2000 MSRP'd for $32-33k and there were big markups at first. The real reason the S2000 is faster than the FRS is because 2 things and 2 things only. Tires and HP. If you put the OEM S2000 tires (Potenza S-03) on the FRS with identical staggered sizes as the s2k and added 40hp, do you think the FRS would be as fast as the S2k? I do, and those things can be done for a hell of a lot less than $33,000! Plus you get more storage room, more torque, more speakers, more passengers and better fuel economy; all with $$ left over.

So you see, it would have been easy for the FRS to be faster from the factory than the S2k, but then it wouldn't have MSRP'd at $24,900. So to make this car as fast as the s2k from the factory would have made it cost more (and there's lots of people who are happy with the 200hp) and thus they would have sold fewer cars to fewer people at the same margin.

Say it with me folks... Cost Benefit Analysis.

In this case, the consumer won.

If you drive any car well, you should never fall out of the power band. Ive tracked my s2000 at 4 norcal tracks, and ive never run into a situation that im under 6k rpm. The ap2 was slightly more tractable, but the big advantage it had over the ap2 was its shorter gears. The ap1 trans is geared far too long for its power output, much like the usdm nsxs. With a shorter final drive 4.44 or 4.77 the car becomes MUCH faster and at least equal to the 2.2 due to the extra 700 revs.

I agree with what you said. I actually love the frs. I just dont believe in boxer engines that aren't porsche made. The big issue here is that the OP is talking about a USED s2000. You can get a great low milage one for under 17k. At that price the FRS doesnt stand a chance. A stock s2000 with brakes, tires and a gtc-300 wing is a SERIOUS track car. You can compete with cars that cost 5x the price if you know how to drive the car.
New s2000 @ 34k vs new frs @ 25k is a tough choice as 9k is a big deal, but a used s2000 is one of the best out of the box track cars on the planet for a very low price.

[s2_slow]

Originally Posted by fatoni

100hp/liter low? can you name me another current japanese car that has more?

and if you can say the frs is better than the s2k because if it had better power and wheels, i can just as easily say that my 94 miata is better than the both of them and it only cost me 3500

100hp/liter is kind of low by todays standards. Honda has been making 100hp/ a liter or greater for years. In the early 90s they made the b16 1.6 @ 165 hp, in 1994 b18c5 1.8 @ 200 hp. Both of these were in cars that cost under $22000. And in 1999 f20c 2.0 @240 hp.

Toyota made the 4A-GE 20v in 1991 1.6l making 165 hp. This engine was a gem with individual throttle bodies...

21 YEARS after these engines were made the best subaru could come up with was a 2.0 making 200 hp?

[jrcoreymv]

Well, got a bit of an update for the thread. My dad and I went to go look at BRZ's, but of course there weren't any. We walked over to the scion dealership, found two that were sold, but we still got to check them out and sit in them. Very nice car, definitely wanted one. Seats felt awesome, seating position was very natural.

Anywayyyyy, here's my new s2000. Just picked it up an hour ago:





Sorry for the crap pics, it was low light and with my iphone. Thanks for all the responses guys. If my dad didn't pass down his s2k, he wouldn't have had a reason to order a mini cooper.

[s2_slow]

Congrats man! I guarantee you will love the car! Enjoy it stock before the mod bug hits you!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by s2_slow

100hp/liter is kind of low by todays standards. Honda has been making 100hp/ a liter or greater for years. In the early 90s they made the b16 1.6 @ 165 hp, in 1994 b18c5 1.8 @ 200 hp. Both of these were in cars that cost under $22000. And in 1999 f20c 2.0 @240 hp.

Toyota made the 4A-GE 20v in 1991 1.6l making 165 hp. This engine was a gem with individual throttle bodies...

21 YEARS after these engines were made the best subaru could come up with was a 2.0 making 200 hp?

naming three cars sounds like the exception. three cars of yesteryear hardly make a case for a new standard. none of those motors had to deal with the regulations of today and all of those motors had more than one cam profile to allow them to be so open up top without having nothing down low. technology can only change so much. air can only travel so fast at only so many angles. can you name a single car in production from japan or anywhere that is south of supercar and makes more than 100hp/liter? let alone at 7k rpm

[jrcoreymv]

Originally Posted by s2_slow

Congrats man! I guarantee you will love the car! Enjoy it stock before the mod bug hits you!

Thanks man. I dunno, the tire tread is a little low...might have to throw on some Enkei RPF1's wrapped in Dunlop Star Specs...dropped on buddy club coils. If only I had the money.

[s2_slow]

Originally Posted by jrcoreymv

Thanks man. I dunno, the tire tread is a little low...might have to throw on some Enkei RPF1's wrapped in Dunlop Star Specs...dropped on buddy club coils. If only I had the money.

Make sure you get 17x9s and run a 255. Star specs are great for every thing... track dd and they are simply amazing on track. As for suspension id avoid anything short of a kwv3 as most other suspension would be a downgrade from the factory. The real hard core guys run the tein SRC, and motons.

[s2_slow]

Originally Posted by fatoni

naming three cars sounds like the exception. three cars of yesteryear hardly make a case for a new standard. none of those motors had to deal with the regulations of today and all of those motors had more than one cam profile to allow them to be so open up top without having nothing down low. technology can only change so much. air can only travel so fast at only so many angles. can you name a single car in production from japan or anywhere that is south of supercar and makes more than 100hp/liter? let alone at 7k rpm

The s2000 makes 120 hp/l. The m3 4.0 makes over 100/l. Look I know very few companies actually know how to make a decent NA motor, all im saying is that if honda could do it 11 years ago, then toyota should have at least been able to get to 220 ish with an 8500 redline. This would have made a HUGE difference. Btw, whats wrong with 2 cam profiles? A sports car should be driven as such and low end shouldnt matter if you are driving briskly. This way you can enjoy better fuel economy at lower rpms as well.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by fatoni

can you name a single car in production from japan or anywhere that is south of supercar and makes more than 100hp/liter? let alone at 7k rpm

Well, the Porsche 2.7L 6 is 265hp @ 6700rpm which on one hand is lower than 100hp/L, but at 6700 that is impressive. BMW S65 is 105hp/L but it needs 8300 rpm, and the engine's specific torque is shitty overall. However I think emissions is probably more annoying on bigger motors because emissions are measured by pollutants per mile, so I imagine their cats are more restrictive or something.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by s2_slow

The s2000 makes 120 hp/l. The m3 4.0 makes over 100/l. Look I know very few companies actually know how to make a decent NA motor, all im saying is that if honda could do it 11 years ago, then toyota should have at least been able to get to 220 ish with an 8500 redline. This would have made a HUGE difference. Btw, whats wrong with 2 cam profiles? A sports car should be driven as such and low end shouldnt matter if you are driving briskly. This way you can enjoy better fuel economy at lower rpms as well.

its just weird to think that just because a company did something under different circumstances, and despite that under current conditions it is rarely met, that it should be easily achievable. toyota probably could do what you are asking of them but that requires ideas, time and development. all of that costs money. to say you want that is fine. when you want all of that and then fail to think about how the s2k had that and was more expensive years ago and your only other example cost triple what the frs costs...just kinda weird.
nothing is wrong with 2 cam profiles except what i mentioned earlier. it costs money

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Well, the Porsche 2.7L 6 is 265hp @ 6700rpm which on one hand is lower than 100hp/L, but at 6700 that is impressive. BMW S65 is 105hp/L but it needs 8300 rpm, and the engine's specific torque is shitty overall. However I think emissions is probably more annoying on bigger motors because emissions are measured by pollutants per mile, so I imagine their cats are more restrictive or something.

youre probably right. it still stands to reason that all of those cars are pretty expensive and have a certain sort of pedigree behind the motor. this car soaks up the hit of initial development and still delivers imo. im sure there will be years to follow where certain criteria are achieved

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by fatoni

youre probably right. it still stands to reason that all of those cars are pretty expensive and have a certain sort of pedigree behind the motor. this car soaks up the hit of initial development and still delivers imo. im sure there will be years to follow where certain criteria are achieved

Definitely. I think the FA20 is pretty good considering the cost restraints. 7500rpm is very good considering there's only 1 cam profile to play with, and the high end torque is decent (not great, but much better than most engines). The low end torque is fantastic considering the single profile cam and the high end power. Since the motor is already very wide, they can't fit multiple cam profiles, and they can't lengthen the rods much either, so they did the best they could with 7500 rpm to play with, considering the layout and all the compromises made, the power is really quite good.

Porsche motors have fancier injection systems and 2 profile cams, and probably a lot of other gizmos, so it's no surprise they do a little better.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by fatoni

it costs money

In 3 words, you made my point.

If the FRS debuted at $33k, I'm sure it could have been as fast as the S2000, but it didn't, so it isn't.

I'm also saying that for a difference in MSRP between the vehicles of $8k, you can add 40hp and stickier/wider set of tires to the FRS for much less than $8k and have a car that could equal the S2K on the track yet be better/more functional as a daily driver (except for the drop top part).

Originally Posted by s2_slow

The big issue here is that the OP is talking about a USED s2000. You can get a great low milage one for under 17k. At that price the FRS doesnt stand a chance. A stock s2000 with brakes, tires and a gtc-300 wing is a SERIOUS track car.

It didn't appears as if the OP was talking about a track toy. Also most clubs require you to have a roll-bar installed if your vehicle is a convertible. Installing a roll bar kind of ruins the car as a DD. You are right about the value of the used S2k.

The FRS, on a personal note, is exciting for me because the only reason I'm not driving around in an S2k is for the reasons I posted earlier (practicality and track-ability compliance) and like I said, the FRS solves all those problems.

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by phenoyz

.... I'll take it for sure !!!!!
THATS ONE VERY - VERY - VERY NICE ap2!!!!

Wow thats beautiful and prestine i would hug that car every night....you rarely see them in this kind of shape....very nice!

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by fatoni

Just like the wrx revived the alltrac and 323gtx

Damn you just reminded me i got rid of my mint 323gtx like a fool.....

[Tbomb 25]

Originally Posted by s2_slow

The s2000 is one of the most honest, fun and tactile cars you will ever get behind the wheel of.. at any price. Ive owned an e36 m3, evo8, 2002 ap1 s200 and now a e92 m3 and I have to say the most fun car of the bunch was the s2000. Its nearly a perfect track car out of the box. (with the exception of cracking and snapping front rotors every track day or so) All you need is a set of decent tires, and pads and you can reliably track the car with no worries of mechanical breakdowns. I feel that its a great street car as well. It rides well even on stock suspension and it is just so much fun to drive on canyon roads/ on ramps. The best part of the car is the engine. While only making 240 hp, its got amazing character and as long as you keep it in the powerband it it amazingly quick on track.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2440556_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3506168_n.jpg

But please dont think im an s2k fan boy. I happen to think the frs is the best new car out right now with only 1 major issue. The engine is devoid of all character, and is utterly gutless. People may say honda engines are gutless as well but a 2.0 revving out to 9k has a certain appeal, not to mention the glorious induction sound. The 2.0 in the frs just lacks so much. If only toyota could have stayed true to its roots and developed their own 2.0 with individual throttle bodies and like an 8500rpm redline making even 220 hp this car would have been perfect from the factory.

Everything else about the frs is perfect imho. The steering wheel feels perfect to the touch and the steering feel is better than the s2000. The seats are far better than even the evo recaros, the grear shifter is amazingly precise with very positive shifts and the chassis balance is very aggressive in stock form. Honestly the car even looks fantastic.

I think the frs could have been better/faster than the s2000 if only toyota/yamaha could have made a decent engine for it. But still, for a new car its a great value and its a hard choice between the two unless you plan to track the car a ton, in that case the s2000 is the clear winner.

Nice list you got there mine would be the: NA Miata,FC RX7 Turbo II,323GTX,Z31 300zx turbo,Mk III GTI vr6,E30,E36,944 Turbo,Mr2 Spyder,2nd gen Probe GT,2nd gen CRX,240z,FB rx7,1st gen Mr2,Mitsubishi Starion Esi and recently the both V8 & V6 Mustangs with track and performance packs.....with the recaro seats it totally changes the seating postion and makes it very much like the FC and the FRS/BRZ seating position and everything fitting like a glove with everything where it should be. I havent had much seat time in S2000 but im sure it will float the hell out of my boat and i havent driven the FRS/BRZ yet but i pretty much know it will float the hell out of my boat to.

[suzuka]

Originally Posted by jrcoreymv

Hey guys, not sure if this belongs in the VS subforum, but I thought it'd be good here.

I have an opportunity to inherit a 20k mile AP2 s2000 at no cost, or spend approximately 10k dollars to get a BRZ. My father owns the s2000 and babied it, so I know it's condition and service records. Now I realize that it comes down to whether the extra practicality is worth the 10 grand, but what I'm more curious about is what you'd do given the choice. I know both cars would be amazing, but I don't want to be sitting in the brz and regret spending the extra money for an arguably similar car. For what it's worth I'm 23 and the extra cargo room would be very useful, but not sure if i can justify the cost.

Updated with pics (old ones):

Jesus... Your newly inherited s2000 with such low mileage should be worth $25,000 !



Honda and even BMW will not make a car with a Formula 1-inspired, highly-tuned-from-factory and reliable N/A engines to die for within reach for middle class like the M52 VANOS and F20C VTEC for a very long time, so don't dump your S2K right away. Simply put... the VTEC engine and the transmission in that s2000 is worth weight in gold!

New global emissions rules pretty much killed pretty-sounding, F-1 inspired 8K-9K RPM N/A engines for middle class; dull-sounding turbo and hybrid/electrification is the new name of high performance game, and the only way to experience pure N/A in a new car is now only reserved in exotic class (Porsche GT3, Ferrari Italia, Lamborghini Aventador... with gas guzzler penalties)



If I were you... keep the s2k.

Just give your S2k a mugen hardtop, Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires, and call it a day

[serialk11r]

I am having a strong sense of deja vu, am I crazy or did someone write more or less exactly the same post as the one above earlier?