Help me narrow my focus, car buying sub $20,000

[D4ng3r]

Hey guys! I am just tossing this out there to kill some time. Within the next year I'm going to be buying a car. My ideal price range is under $20,000.

Requirements:

Must be reliable
Decent fit/finish
Must have a good shift feel
Can't be a "boat"
Decent MPG
Sporty handling
At least some aftermarket support
200+ hp
Prefer sedan+coupe instead of hatchback.

FWD is acceptable if it nails every criteria (I'm looking at you, MazdaSpeed3 and GTI). RWD would be nice, AWD, sure.

I'm a tuner at heart, and as such this car will become my baby project. I expect to put about $3,000 into the car over its life (really though, I can't say 100% how much I'll spend!). I want it to be unique.


So, some cars I have looked at (keep in mind I'm Canadian):

GTI (newer the better? I have heard of expensive repair bills on older VWs).

A car that I would LOVE: 2012 Jetta GLI (it gets terrible reviews though! sadly!!! and at $27,000 its a bit much :S )

2007-8 Audi A4 (I would drop this on either coils or spring+shocks)

2007-8 BMW 328i (same as above)

2008-2010 SAAB 9-3 2.0T (Very inexpensive! would drop the car to increase handling. small aftermarket support, but I love the look.. thoughts on this car??)

2011+ Mustang v6 (...not a big ford guy, at all. Only the hard stats on this car make me even consider it, as it has a tremendous price/hp ratio)

2010+ WRX (my dream car. The most expensive option on my list. Heavy. )

2012 FR-S (I want a bit more practicality than this car offers, I'm not a die-hard enough to choose this over a WRX)

2011 Genesis Coupe (Not a huge fan of their "jack of all trades" feel, shifting feel is sloppy. Nice design).



So guys, there you have it. I would say the most interesting things I have on this list are the 328i BMW, and the SAAB 9-3. Does anyone have thoughts on the SAAB, good or bad? I can get a 2010 with 40,000km for $15,000 (210hp turbo, leather, sunroof). That sounds like a steal to me. Drop it on some agressive springs, and the "numb handling" argument gets less credit.

Thanks for your random musings, guys. Any thoughts or questions to help me focus are appreciated.

[Calum]

Pick up an 08 rex, and mod it. There's one in Toronto for under 12 grand, but it's got a ton of kms. Theres more on autotrader.ca.

[D4ng3r]

Originally Posted by Calum

Pick up an 08 rex, and mod it. There's one in Toronto for under 12 grand, but it's got a ton of kms. Theres more on autotrader.ca.

How are high-km subies? I know I would need a compression test before I would consider buying one... but do they hold up OK?

Also, I am really partial to the newer wide bodykits on the 2010+ wrx's.. would really have to find a screaming deal on a 2008 for me to jump ship! Good tip though, I'm gonna go browse.

Edit: Why the hell didn't I know that the 2008-2009 WRX models came in sedan version?! Haha I must be one of the most dense idiots out there... I've never seen one on the road before! In my searches, I can only find 2008 models hitting $19 grand, roughly.. nothing much cheaper except for a rebuild.

[blur]

I've driven the 2008 A4, very "meh" kind of car. Acura TL type S is my recommendation.

[Godzpeed]

SAAB? LOL... good luck find parts in a few years time. FYI they are extinct already.

I'd get an used Honda Fit and Turbo it to around 200HP with the budget you are offering.

Its around 1000kg, at 200HP, its not slower than a WRX. Not to mention its practical and actually really fun to drive due to its low weight. With a set of grippy tires and coilovers, the car grips like no tomorrow since there are hardly any stress on the tires. Shift feel is great on the 5MT fit and huge aftermarket support, and of course, this car is great on gas that only a Hybrid could beat.

tbh, I don't really know how much parts you could buy with just 3k... a set of decent rims and tires will cost around that much already. Might as well get something cheaper and mod.

and no, i'm not joking about the Fit. I do own a Fit thats turbo charged in China, and its far more fun than anything you listed other than the FR-S. I've also owned a Yaris RS thats supercharged before. Which is also great fun with a limited budget!

[Asterisked Accolade]

Porsche 944 Turbo.
Last-gen Mazda RX7.
1990-1998 Corvette.

[Godzpeed]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

Why would anyone buy a POS like the Fit or Yaris, with plans to do FI? They are both shitty platforms for anything. At that point, why wouldn't you just go buy a 2,000 dollar civic and spend another 3k on it and have a 300-400whp car.

I guess either you are in high school or never really had a chance to play with one of those cars. Otherwise you'd not call those cars POS. Just because they are cheap it doesn't mean they are poorly built.

These cars, especially the 2nd generation and up have a very capable chassis that are actually far more rigid than a lot of so call sports cars on the market.
With proper suspension tuning and tires, these cars are actually very fun to drive with minimal weight.

The L15A engine is quite tunable, while the 1NZFE in the Yaris is a bit lacking. but both with a lightweight fly wheel and force inducted, they are quite a hot hatch.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

Why would anyone buy a POS like the Fit or Yaris, with plans to do FI? They are both shitty platforms for anything. At that point, why wouldn't you just go buy a 2,000 dollar civic and spend another 3k on it and have a 300-400whp car.

Actually, I know a guy who turboed his newer-model Yaris, put a good suspension on it, and it runs great at auto-x. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by D4ng3r

How are high-km subies? I know I would need a compression test before I would consider buying one... but do they hold up OK?

Also, I am really partial to the newer wide bodykits on the 2010+ wrx's.. would really have to find a screaming deal on a 2008 for me to jump ship! Good tip though, I'm gonna go browse.

Edit: Why the hell didn't I know that the 2008-2009 WRX models came in sedan version?! Haha I must be one of the most dense idiots out there... I've never seen one on the road before! In my searches, I can only find 2008 models hitting $19 grand, roughly.. nothing much cheaper except for a rebuild.

I searched autotrader.ca for all rex's in Ontario, it gave me one in Qc as well. They ranged from ~12g to 21g. Subie's are generally considered to last a LONG time mechanically. Fit and finish is usually lacking compared to some brands but ymmv.

You should also know that the 08's had less power, softer suspension and possibly a smaller turbo. I don't know all the dirty details, but as far as i know the major components were the same, just some tuning to make the 09's a little more hard edged. Because of this the 08's should be cheaper, but if you're modding it anyway, the differences shouldn't matter.

[D4ng3r]

Originally Posted by Calum

I searched autotrader.ca for all rex's in Ontario, it gave me one in Qc as well. They ranged from ~12g to 21g. Subie's are generally considered to last a LONG time mechanically. Fit and finish is usually lacking compared to some brands but ymmv.

You should also know that the 08's had less power, softer suspension and possibly a smaller turbo. I don't know all the dirty details, but as far as i know the major components were the same, just some tuning to make the 09's a little more hard edged. Because of this the 08's should be cheaper, but if you're modding it anyway, the differences shouldn't matter.

I know that in 2008 there were 2 models, the 225hp, and then the 265hp model. I would be buying the 265hp (has better fuel econ, if you can believe it) and the larger mitsubishi turbo.

[n2oinferno]

If you love the new GLI, why not a MKV? Unless you just don't like the styling, it's a better car, IMO. Doesn't have that watered-down feeling that the new "Americanized" VWs have. I'd just advise on an 08+ with the TSI engine instead of the FSI. Keep in mind you'll have to clean the engine out every once in a while, since the DI leaves a lot of carbon buildup on the valve train.

But if your true dream is the WRX, get one. It's by no means an unattainable dream.

[D4ng3r]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Unless you just don't like the styling, it's a better car, IMO. Doesn't have that watered-down feeling that the new "Americanized" VWs have. I'd just advise on an 08+ with the TSI engine instead of the FSI. Keep in mind you'll have to clean the engine out every once in a while, since the DI leaves a lot of carbon buildup on the valve train.

But if your true dream is the WRX, get one. It's by no means an unattainable dream.

Thank you so much for your input. I looked into the MKVs as you suggested, and I just can't quite swallow the handling. I do agree... American made cars are getting too soft!

I think at this point, I'm considering the WRX. Now I just need to determine if I want:

1. a 2009 WRX with low KMs
2. spend the money on a 2011 WRX, which I like the design of better (but it is at least $5,000-$7,000 more expensive)
3. wait until the next WRX is announced to see if it will be bucket-loads better, and buy a POS beater until then to save money. This also might let me pick up an older WRX for less at that point (maybe a year from now?)
4. ?

[bestwheelbase]

Can you get a decent E46 M3 for under $20k?

[GenkiElite]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

Why would anyone buy a POS like the Fit or Yaris, with plans to do FI? They are both shitty platforms for anything. At that point, why wouldn't you just go buy a 2,000 dollar civic and spend another 3k on it and have a 300-400whp car.

Because 40mpg. That's what my girlfriend's 07 5 speed Yaris gets. Oh and it's dead reliable as well as fun to drive. Grow up kid.

[D4ng3r]

Originally Posted by bestwheelbase

Can you get a decent E46 M3 for under $20k?

Found this one:

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/M/VAN...S200451911413/

I think 80k km is the max I would get on a used bimmer.. I have heard wayyyy too many horror stories about maintenance costs on one of these.

Do you have any experience with the BMWs, and how much they cost to maintain? That would be a killer for me...

$18,000 for a 2003 BMW m3, or same price for a 2009 WRX. Thoughts? I'm leaning towards newer= better, taking into consideration my desires for fit+finish / reliable.

[Godzpeed]

Originally Posted by D4ng3r

Found this one:

http://www.autotrader.ca/a/BMW/M/VAN...S200451911413/

I think 80k km is the max I would get on a used bimmer.. I have heard wayyyy too many horror stories about maintenance costs on one of these.

Do you have any experience with the BMWs, and how much they cost to maintain? That would be a killer for me...

$18,000 for a 2003 BMW m3, or same price for a 2009 WRX. Thoughts? I'm leaning towards newer= better, taking into consideration my desires for fit+finish / reliable.

I'd take the 09 WRX rather than an used M3, even tho the M3 is a far better car.

Especially with a budget like yours, I don't think its a good idea to buy an used BMW. remember the M3 was around 70-80k brand new, even the used price is under 20k now, its still cost the same to maintain a 70-80k car.

But i'd skip the WRX and go straight to a STI, maybe 06 or 08 STI would be a even better choice.

[Godzpeed]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

Is that right? Your girlfriends Yaris has a turbo bolted to it and its dead reliable? Because I know being the smart adult you are, you would never reference a NA Yaris in a response to someone talking about a FI Yaris.

TIL: Yaris, only small economy car that gets 40mpg..

Toyota engines are pretty much bulletproof, my old Yaris that had been supercharged never had a single problem and runs just like a factory engine.

Even my Fit that had been turbo has been reliable for the past 200k KM.

Both of these cars has been tuned to have around 180WHP with no internal upgrades

[GenkiElite]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

Is that right? Your girlfriends Yaris has a turbo bolted to it and its dead reliable? Because I know being the smart adult you are, you would never reference a NA Yaris in a response to someone talking about a FI Yaris.

TIL: Yaris, only small economy car that gets 40mpg..

Whatever kid. Your stupidity just glows through more and more every time you speak.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by GenkiElite

Whatever kid. Your stupidity just glows through more and more every time you speak.

Originally Posted by justaquestion

That must be why you dodge questions and go straight to name calling. I really hope your some 17 year old pretending, and aren't actually a grown man.

If you two want to go argue, take it outside of this thread, will you?

[GenkiElite]

Originally Posted by justaquestion

That must be why you dodge questions and go straight to name calling. I really hope your some 17 year old pretending, and aren't actually a grown man.

Not really name calling, just pointing out your demographic. The point is both the Yaris aka Vitz and the Fit are highly capable vehicles with great tuning potential but most peaple dont just slap a turbo on something and call it a day because they realize theres more to it than that. You want to get an old tired ass EG chassis and boost it be my guest. Odds are you'll fit right in with the crowd. This probably would have been acceptable 7 or 8 years ago but most have realized that having torque with a usable power band is more important than peak numbers (unless your're drag racing". The fact that you have no Idea of the potential of said vehicles means you're probably just thumbing through old issues of SCC. Either way I didnt want to get into a whole rant about it, I just want to point out the fact that you're previous comment was uninformed and you sound like a fool.

[Godzpeed]

How many race track have you been to? just 3??? and seriously, how many cars have you driven?

FYI, There are Vitz Cup in Japan, and Toyota sells Vitz cup cars directly from the factory with LSD and roll cage.

[D4ng3r]

Are you guys done with the Vitsz/ Yaris argument? Can we keep it on topic please?