Brake upgrade needed when going to 18s?

[FR-Slide]

One of my favorite aspects of this car when stock was the OEM brakes were very good. Probably better than 90% of the competition in both performance and feel.

I just swapped on staggered 18s (8.5 front, 9.5 rear) running 235 and 255 rubber, and while the extra grip is great, I definitely feel like I lost some braking performance and increased my stopping distance. This car is my DD, with light canyon use and rare track/autox days, so I want to keep something still street friendly, but not overkill. I just want a good pedal feel back, as well as to reign in the stopping distance to stock or better. Honestly (and I must be getting older now that I'm saying this...) I really want to upgrade for safety first, as I know I don't truly NEED performance/fade-proof brakes for the track.

Is a simple pad change sufficient (and if so, what do most people recommend for street+ driving)? Do I need to start looking at lines + fluid? Or is something like new rotors and/or calipers (STI swap or similar) really needed?

[MisterSheep]

I do not believe rotors are absolutely needed neither are lines.. I would get a fluid change with anything DOT4 rated, and some new brake pads, Winmax W2 might be great for your intentions.

The only reason I would upgrade the rotors is if the stock rotors became damaged, warped, or worn out. The stock ones will perform fine.

[Shark_Bait88]

Pads and fluid will be more than sufficient.

Changing rotors and calipers has a lot more to do with handling heat than actually reducing braking distance.

Increased grip really should reduce your braking distance, but it could be the added weight that's making it feel like braking performance has suffered.

[jasonojordan]

From factory the stock brakes overpowered the stock tires. What your feeling now is the tires doing their job and now its the other way around. Your upgraded wheels and tires now have the grip to surpass the brakes. This is not a bad thing. But that said there is brake gains to be had with better pads fluid lines and rotors. Also a brake cyl braces helps firm up that pedal feel as well if you have the extra bucks laying around.

[FR-Slide]

Originally Posted by MisterSheep

I do not believe rotors are absolutely needed neither are lines.. I would get a fluid change with anything DOT4 rated, and some new brake pads, Winmax W2 might be great for your intentions.

The only reason I would upgrade the rotors is if the stock rotors became damaged, warped, or worn out. The stock ones will perform fine.

Thanks, that's mostly what I assumed (pads + fluid, maybe lines), but I see so many people running BBKs that I figured I should ask.

I just read the Winmax thread the other day, and agree that the W2s sound good. I also know many folks running Hawks and even the facny Project Mu stuff, so I wanted to see what most of the DD users were going with.

[FR-Slide]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Pads and fluid will be more than sufficient.

Changing rotors and calipers has a lot more to do with handling heat than actually reducing braking distance.

Increased grip really should reduce your braking distance, but it could be the added weight that's making it feel like braking performance has suffered.

Yeah, I think it's the extra rotational/unsprung weight which is causing the change in feel. Stopping distance may not be adversely affected, I haven't pulled out a measuring device, but purely from seat-of-pants feel, it feels less sure-footed, which is what I want to get back to. Thanks!

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by FR-Slide

Thanks, that's mostly what I assumed (pads + fluid, maybe lines), but I see so many people running BBKs that I figured I should ask.

I just read the Winmax thread the other day, and agree that the W2s sound good. I also know many folks running Hawks and even the facny Project Mu stuff, so I wanted to see what most of the DD users were going with.

Most people running BBKs on these cars are doing it for street cred/bling factor, not any actual functional performance use.

W2s or Hawks are fine for DD. I have Project Mu Club Racers for track pads, and have dailied for several days on them after a track day before. They are definitely not a pad you want to daily. Very loud and dust like crazy (I literally forgot what color my wheels were until I washed them haha). They do bite like crazy though and stand up really well to track use.

The stock lines are fine btw.

[FR-Slide]

Originally Posted by jasonojordan

From factory the stock brakes overpowered the stock tires. What your feeling now is the tires doing their job and now its the other way around. Your upgraded wheels and tires now have the grip to surpass the brakes. This is not a bad thing. But that said there is brake gains to be had with better pads fluid lines and rotors. Also a brake cyl braces helps firm up that pedal feel as well if you have the extra bucks laying around.

That makes sense, and probably why a novice driver like myself felt so confident with the stock brakes. I certainly feel the extra GRIP when braking from the tires, but it feels like the pads are working harder to slow the car down, which is not as confidence inspiring. Maybe just takes some getting used to, though.

I thought about picking up an MCB as well, but I'm all about "earning" the upgrades once I actually hit a limit of my skill instead of just throwing money at the car and hoping for performance increases. I will definitely do pads and fluid, and probably new lines. If it still feels mushy, I'll look into the MCB as well.

Thanks for the feedback!

[jasonojordan]

Alot of people run the BBK kits to help fill in the gap between the caliper and the wheels when going from 17-18. 18's can make the calipers and rotors look small. There is a performance boost as well but from what I have read the boost is not worth the money for most drivers as most of us will not even come close to approach the limits of the cars braking.

[jasonojordan]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Most people running BBKs on these cars are doing it for street cred/bling factor, not any actual functional performance use.

W2s or Hawks are fine for DD. I have Project Mu Club Racers for track pads, and have dailied for several days on them after a track day before. They are definitely not a pad you want to daily. Very loud and dust like crazy (I literally forgot what color my wheels were until I washed them haha). They do bite like crazy though and stand up really well to track use.

The stock lines are fine btw.

Damn it stop typing what im saying faster then I am!!! lol

[FR-Slide]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Most people running BBKs on these cars are doing it for street cred/bling factor, not any actual functional performance use.

W2s or Hawks are fine for DD. I have Project Mu Club Racers for track pads, and have dailied for several days on them after a track day before. They are definitely not a pad you want to daily. Very loud and dust like crazy (I literally forgot what color my wheels were until I washed them haha). They do bite like crazy though and stand up really well to track use.

The stock lines are fine btw.

Yeah, I figured it was more of an aesthetic upgrade for many folks. I'd love to do it as well, but I'm not sure I can swing $1500-2000 for prettier brakes right now.

Good to know about the lines, I am used to other platforms that have very squishy lines, plus if I was going to flush and change fluid, it seemed like a good time to change lines too. But maybe it's not the best use of my $$ right now. I'll check out the pads reviews, and I assume any DOT-4 fluid is fine?

I feel you on the track pads - I just got some shiny new wheels, not trying to be scrubbing them with a toothbrush every weekend just to say I'm on race pads haha

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

Most people running BBKs on these cars are doing it for street cred/bling factor, not any actual functional performance use.

W2s or Hawks are fine for DD. I have Project Mu Club Racers for track pads, and have dailied for several days on them after a track day before. They are definitely not a pad you want to daily. Very loud and dust like crazy (I literally forgot what color my wheels were until I washed them haha). They do bite like crazy though and stand up really well to track use.

The stock lines are fine btw.

Most people do it because it's a significant cost reduction if you're consistently tracking.

[SkAsphalt]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Most people do it because it's a significant cost reduction if you're consistently tracking.

sssssssssh, logic is

[strat61caster]

For reference, cost analysis of a BBK by a member.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94608

I love this thread, the performance wasn't the issue, it was a cost and maintenance reduction, and it really only makes sense if you're eating multiple sets of high end pads per year. This guy was ecstatic that the kit pays for itself after 27 track days, my 86 probably won't see that many track days total until I'm over 7 years into owning it, and I currently don't have the skill level to eat a set of high quality pads over 4 track days yet.

Aside from track consumable costs the other advantage is weight, but the number of truly competitive 86's out there looking for a few pounds of weight reduction is minuscule, and those people already know who they are.