Wrecked FR-S Crash Already - Not Mine

[neutral]

Originally Posted by RRnold

What tracks have 20mph turns!?!

Yeah I couldn't tell if he was being sarcastic or not...

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by blur

Same thing happened with the MR2, toyota had to neuter it... honestly a simple spring swap with the BRZ springs should reduce incidents like this. Maybe scion should organize free HPDE events for FRS owners, maybe word will get around as the car gets more popular that this car has a kick to it.

And not every car behaves like this at the limit, a RWD with an open diff wouldn't oversteer like that. Not many RWD cars come factory with LSD or such an aggressive suspension tune.

Blur, please don't take that personal, but there is nothing at all you can do to keep a 200 hp RWD car in a 20 mph corner from hanging the back out, if you just shift down and go full throttle. Otherwise it would be complete crap, not a sports car. And even if it does not happen on dry tarmac (e.g. due to low corner entry speed or high performance tires), than you will see the back coming in the wet.
An LSD actually makes the car better controllable in a drift. But belive me, you can hang the back out also without LSD.

If anyone should be too worried about a RWD car behaving like a RWD car and don't want to learn, how to handle such a car ..... then better buy a Golf.

Originally Posted by FT_Monk

So many driving geniuses in this thread; VSC/TSC/ABS are hindrance to their superior driving skills. Of course they don't tell you when they crashed.

Yes, it's possible!
I have stopped doing crashes many years ago - after I found out that it is no fun!

Seriously, wasn't this exactly the point with the 86/BRZ/FR-S? A car, that is easy to drive, even in the wet!!

There are sure cars today, that are a little dangerous without VSC/TSC/ABS , especially in the wet. An example would be the BMW 135i with these poor RFT-tires. Or take some mid-engine cars.

[DantKR]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

Read your statements. They will adjust your premiums up or down depending on the repair costs of the car and if people are wrecking them.

My premiums on my Sierra went up 75 bucks a year because they are damn expensive to fix (and they even itemized it in my statement).

And this is Sate Farm, not some discount crap you get from watching Comedy Central at 3 AM.

Sounds like you need a new insurance company. I had to drop progressive because they ended up raising my rates for NO REASON at all. This was more likely your case than Sierra being expensive to fix.

[BobDigi5060]

Originally Posted by neutral

Thanks man. I'd say that what you said was warranted and accurate though. I should've known better. And what you said was nothing compared to what the guys on Jalopnik said about me. Completely different opinions over there. It's just nice to get a feeling of community here. I'm really glad you guys didn't ostracize me. I will be a better person and a better, more responsible driver after this experience.

What I said was nothing that you didn't know after the crash.. You gotta understand that the fellas at Jalopnik try their hardest to assume themselves, and get off on other people's misfortune.

Did I mention getting cuffed for street racing? That was 6 years ago, it's not even on my record

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by neutral

what you said was nothing compared to what the guys on Jalopnik said about me.

It's a mob mentality over there with nothing constructive in the comments section, though they can be amusing (I LOLed at the "he could've crashed a Mustang V6 for that price" comment).

You made a mistake, but the important thing is no one got hurt. You stepped up and gave an honest account of what happened as a warning to others. That shows integrity and you've earned my respect.

Originally Posted by thill

I have to say, that while I agree that turning off traction and stability on public roads is not a good idea if you are not experienced with a RWD car, or do not understand how far you can push the car, traction and stability control will also not save you from the laws of physics. Just drive smartly. There is a time and place to drive the car hard. A large empty parking lot is a good place to start.

Agreed. I knew two guys with Civics:

Driver06: 2006 Si w/out TCS
Driver07: 2007 Si with TCS

07 would drive like a bat-out-of-hell around every corner, treating the accelerator as an on-off-switch, and relying on the computer to keep him on the road. 06 couldn't keep up. We went to an autox together and 07 did well (almost keeping up with my RX8). He talked a lot of trash about 06.

I grew tired of 07's boasting and I pointed out that 06 lacked TCS. He immediately insisted it wasn't a factor, so I suggested he disable it (I had to show him how).

Predictably, his run wasn't clean and he took over 5 seconds longer. Prior to that, he had no clue that he'd been overdriving the car.

Traction control is great if you're driving normally and come around a corner into a patch of wet leaves, sand, ice, or oil. But if you're already driving too fast for conditions, coming across something unexpected can result in an even more severe crash.

It's a good idea to leave traction control enabled on public roads, but to also learn how the car behaves without it (in a safe environment: autox, track, or big empty parking lot).

[hachi_roku]

Well... Those are some sad pictures. But at least no one was injured.

[Erc#1983]

TS, I feel for you mate. The last thing you want is to have anything bad to happen to your ride. Thank God you're alright and let's pray this doesnt push the insurance fees upward.

[tripjammer]

That is probably not totaled but wait the FR-S is only $25k so it just might be, if there is any engine damage.

[blur]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Blur, please don't take that personal, but there is nothing at all you can do to keep a 200 hp RWD car in a 20 mph corner from hanging the back out, if you just shift down and go full throttle. Otherwise it would be complete crap, not a sports car. And even if it does not happen on dry tarmac (e.g. due to low corner entry speed or high performance tires), than you will see the back coming in the wet.
An LSD actually makes the car better controllable in a drift. But belive me, you can hang the back out also without LSD.

If anyone should be too worried about a RWD car behaving like a RWD car and don't want to learn, how to handle such a car ..... then better buy a Golf.

We all know that the FR-S is an extremely easy car to reach a point of oversteer with, while other cars dial in understeer (such as the BRZ) to prevent it a little more. Many car reviewers were surprised to see such a raw car in stock configuration. Why do you think Subaru went with more understeer? Because most people who've had AWD cars know nothing about oversteer, and even though many reviewers said that the tail of this car comes out very naturally, it's obviously still surprising for someone with previous experience of FWD/AWD.

[SWAMechFRS]

Note to self:

Do not post pics and/or tell the story if you wad up the car.

What a bunch of jackasses. He's just a kid. You got to live and learn. Cut him some slack.

[neutral]

Originally Posted by SWAMechFRS

Note to self:

Do not post pics and/or tell the story if you wad up the car.

What a bunch of jackasses. He's just a kid. You got to live and learn. Cut him some slack.

I think the vast majority of people in this thread have been cutting me slack. It was only initially when the pictures first came out that people were left to their own imaginations on what the hell actually happened.

By the way, it's very weird seeing some major event of your life being put out there and viewed by tens of thousands of people on the Internet. Not exactly how I want to be known. haha....

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by blur

We all know that the FR-S is an extremely easy car to reach a point of oversteer with, while other cars dial in understeer (such as the BRZ) to prevent it a little more. Many car reviewers were surprised to see such a raw car in stock configuration. Why do you think Subaru went with more understeer? Because most people who've had AWD cars know nothing about oversteer, and even though many reviewers said that the tail of this car comes out very naturally, it's obviously still surprising for someone with previous experience of FWD/AWD.

Wrong answer. Randy Probst proved the BRZ handles better and more neutral at speed. We are left with Scion trying to appeal to the drifter crowd or perhaps auto-x.

[Celicadude]

Dude seriously this whole mentality of you cant have fun unless the traction control is a load off crap and is what is going to get more of these cars wrapped around more poles. I just came back from a ferrari/lambo driving event that i found on groupon and had a blast. And all the electronic nannies were on and doing their thing. In fact, I was too busy looking for the next apex to even care. For the vast majority of people purchasing this car this will be their first experience driving a rwd sports car (hell for some people on here this will be their first manual car).

I wouldn't be surprised the reason the vast majority of sports cars in the late 80's-90's were either discontinued or changed to fwd was because of the difficulty of the average driver to recover from oversteer (ie: old corollas and celicas). Not everyone is a weekend enthusiast and most of us grew up driving fwd platforms, myself included. So now that rwd has been made a little more user friendly the automotive world/press has decided to bash tcs/vcs etc, the same tcs/vsc that I believe has convinced many manufacturers to bring back the rwd sports car to joe schmoe public. The reason all these journalists hate the "nannies" is because they've been driving for years. And to be quite honest I would too if I had their kind of experience. But I don't, so I'm going to know my limits until I get better and move up to something more challenging. And yes, could someone still demolish their car with everything still on? Yes, but why making it even more likely to happen by turning them off, especially in the hands of someone inexperienced.

So if you are new to this car or any rwd car for that matter, go to the track and learn its limits. Get professional training, and have fun in a safe environment. Start with everything on, and THEN work your way up to everything off.

Perfect example right here:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7300

[sysfailur]

Unless you know what you're doing please leave the traction control on folks. /dislikethread. And I don't even HAVE my BRZ yet.... grah.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I've never had stability control and never missed it. IMO, it can let drivers develop bad habits. The few times I have experienced stability controls or traction control in other cars, I felt it was overly/unnecessarily intrusive.

Having driver training that emphasizes control at/beyond the limits of adhesion would be much better, but of course that's probably a bit much to expect...

God knows the unskilled masses are much better off with traction/stability controls, but my personal preference is for no driver aids.

I agree. However, there's NO benefit in turning it off on the street. One really shouldn't be activiting it on the street unless they are driving beyond what's logical/needed for the street and it's there to help with some of those "oh crap" moments.

In general, as long as it can be disabled for the track/autocross then I have nothing against TCS/VSC systems.

[Roadstercycle]

Neutral, Things happen and we as a group will be a bit more cautious, you may have saved a few cars. I know I'll be watching closer in turns. I believe the Prius tires that they put on us could be a little at fault but I don't know for sure. I know when I wear these out I'm upgrading and losing MPG over it. Sorry about your car but thanks for sharing.

[R8]

Originally Posted by sysfailur

Unless you know what you're doing please leave the traction control on...

And even if someone IS experienced... why turn it off on the street? It only intervenes when the wheels break loose, right? So it's not something anyone should be TRYING to do in public anyway.

And besides, there are unexpected events where it might save someone, regardless of skill, such as an emergency lane change. No one, no matter how skilled, can brake one side of the car to straighten it out (as stability control will).

[Partial Stall]

Originally Posted by fito68

Taking a right hand turn at 20? the street isnt a fucking track!

Sorry, but taking a wide open 90 degree turn at 20 feels incredibly stable and planted in the BRZ/FR-S. The traction control light doesn't even come on unless you power through it in 1st.

I would just use sport traction control mode awhile untill one is used to the back end swinging out. I took the brz to a big open parking after she hit 1000 miles about a week ago. I learned alot about how the car responds to different inputs during hard acceleration.

[Exhaust]

So, selling any parts?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by R8

And even if someone IS experienced... why turn it off on the street?

Because I want the car to respond naturally to loss of traction.

It only intervenes when the wheels break loose, right? So it's not something anyone should be TRYING to do in public anyway.

I've broken the rear wheels loose unintentionally, and definitely prefer to leave gathering it back up to myself. Two brains (one electronic) trying to do the same thing by different methods isn't necessarily ideal...

And besides, there are unexpected events where it might save someone, regardless of skill, such as an emergency lane change. No one, no matter how skilled, can brake one side of the car to straighten it out (as stability control will).

Problem is, the stability control system has NO idea where the car should really be pointed, and will try to straighten it out even if continued rotation is necessary to avoid a collision!

These systems aren't perfect. The best brain in the car with the most complete knowledge of the situation is still going to be the driver's in most cases. If said driver has the requisite skills to control a sliding car, probably best to leave control in his hands (and feet).

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by FT_Monk

So many driving geniuses in this thread; VSC/TSC/ABS are hindrance to their superior driving skills. Of course they don't tell you when they crashed.

I want to know when I make mistakes, I don't want them to be glossed over by stability/traction control systems.

My crashes: 1996 at Road Atlanta in the 240Z. Damp track, too much speed through the esses, lost it in 5, backed it into an Jersey barrier.
2001 at Watkins Glen: Carried WAY more speed through the chicane and turn 5, used the same brake point into the laces of the boot despite entering at 5-10mph faster. Trail-braked like mad, got sideways, gathered it back up, but by then out of track. Went off, backed it into an embankment. Same corner of the car (left rear). Doh.

A miraculous stability control system might have saved me in both cases, but more likely with current state of the art systems I'd have just impacted with the front right corner of the car instead of the rear left. I just went in too hot in both cases.

Since then, hundreds of thousands of miles (many on snow/ice) on the street and tens of thousands on the track without the benefit of traction/stability controls in multiple rwd cars without incident.

The idea that "it could happen to anyone!" is utter b.s. It *is* possible to develop driving skills and minimize the likelihood of this type of incident.

I'm not a "driving genius", but I do have a developed/practiced skillset that 99% of the driving public (or more) simply do not have because they've never practiced driving at the limit. If you haven't driven a rwd car at the limit, you can't be expected to do the right thing when things start to go bad.

Do autoX, do track days. Way better than having traction and stability controls...

[coyote]

Originally Posted by neutral

... don't try to be Ken Block. Unless you are Ken Block, in which case, keep being awesome.

Looks to me exactly like just about every WRC car Ken Block has ever driven.