FR-S vs S2000

[Opposed]

Hey everyone,

Wow, I don't mean to come in between this argument or discussion, but just came from an AP1 S2000 into a 2013 FR-S. Being that im at work right now, and we have all seen that stats im not going to to into much detail right now, but I will answer any questions anyone may have. My 02 S2K had intake, test pipe and 4.77 final gears. I owned that car for 5 years and drove it to 100k miles. I had a blast in that car but also had a winter beater. My goal was to go down to one car, have something new and more practical to own and yet still have fun driving. And to be honest, I have not felt this way in years about a car before, not even the S when I got it. I just can't stop thinking about driving this Scion! I want to drive it to the mail box, and to bring the garbage down...This is the perfect car for ME. Sure, I gave up some performance and the hand built legend that was the S2000. But daily driving, with the DIS, this thing is easier, and has more torque and midrange punch than the S did down low, even with the gears. This is the first brand new car I have owned and so far, not a single regret. Again, let me know if anyone has any other questions about comparing the two, I will help out as much as possible.

[5upa_mari0]

I currently own a S2000 AP1 modified, my uncle works for Toyota Scion and the FR-S is a very nice car, however in many ways the S2000 IMO is a better car. Seeing you can get an s2000 used for around 20+ you get more aftermarket support (right now) from turbo's, supercharger's, gears and tuning. One of the smoothest transmissions ever built, a forged internal engine capable of hold over 450whp all day, and over 600whp driven on weekends. You get double wishbone vs mac strut suspension, we call know which is better... so maybe once the FRS/BRZ gets cheaper it may be worth getting them then however the S2000 is a much better car other then maybe a daily driver once you modify it lol

[suzuka]

Originally Posted by Opposed

Hey everyone,

My 02 S2K had intake, test pipe and 4.77 final gears.

wow

that gear is overkill for the streets

did you specifically get that gear for street driving to always stay in VTEC range at low speeds?

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Gardus

The M3 E46 and later M-cars has a clutch diff with the % variable electronically.
I'm not sure abou the Evo and Subaru diff, maybe the centre one is a clutch type.

The Evo X has an active clutch type center and rear diff and helical/torsen front diff. The STI has an active center diff and helical/torsen front and rear diffs.

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by suzuka

wow

that gear is overkill for the streets

did you specifically get that gear for street driving to always stay in VTEC range at low speeds?

Not overkill at all. I daily drove that car over 100k miles. I think the stock gearing is a joke on the S. I was getting raped by Dodge Caravans from stop lights. Have you driven an AP1 with gears? It was a completely different car. If I ever get another S, the gears will be the first thing to go unless I went boost. And no, VTEC engaged at 6k stock (which you may know by your screen name) It was still only at about 4800 at 70-75 mph.

[Opposed]

Originally Posted by 5upa_mari0

I currently own a S2000 AP1 modified, my uncle works for Toyota Scion and the FR-S is a very nice car, however in many ways the S2000 IMO is a better car. Seeing you can get an s2000 used for around 20+ you get more aftermarket support (right now) from turbo's, supercharger's, gears and tuning. One of the smoothest transmissions ever built, a forged internal engine capable of hold over 450whp all day, and over 600whp driven on weekends. You get double wishbone vs mac strut suspension, we call know which is better... so maybe once the FRS/BRZ gets cheaper it may be worth getting them then however the S2000 is a much better car other then maybe a daily driver once you modify it lol

I fully agree, but to each his own. I live in a state where it snows 5 months out of the year. My S was 10 years old with 100k miles on it. It has squeaks and rattles. The top had to be replaced twice, ect. I had to have a winter beater as well. Gas for two cars, insurance for two cars, maintainence for two cars let alone both were old. Now I can have one car, a NEW car, cheaper payments, cheaper insurance, with a warranty and free maintainance for two years. I have never looked back personally after trading the S in. I wasn't a "S2000 was the end all of sports car" guy like a lot of them on the forum. I appreciate all vehicles. And this was the most practical car for ME that felt the closest to an S. Im no S2K noob either. MN is the home of Fullblown which holds the record for a stock block F20.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 5upa_mari0;[URL="tel:255931"

255931[/URL]]I currently own a S2000 AP1 modified, my uncle works for Toyota Scion and the FR-S is a very nice car, however in many ways the S2000 IMO is a better car. Seeing you can get an s2000 used for around 20+ you get more aftermarket support (right now) from turbo's, supercharger's, gears and tuning. One of the smoothest transmissions ever built, a forged internal engine capable of hold over 450whp all day, and over 600whp driven on weekends. You get double wishbone vs mac strut suspension, we call know which is better... so maybe once the FRS/BRZ gets cheaper it may be worth getting them then however the S2000 is a much better car other then maybe a daily driver once you modify it lol

please tell me all about how the s2000 has better suspension than the cayman r and the like

[eriktherod]

Well, stock for stock is one entirely different debate. Once you start talking about modding and such, you enter a different realm.

Not to dog the S2000, while I never owned one I wish I would have had the chance to. I did have a K20 Si that I did a bunch of bolt-on work to, and many S2000 owners were jealous that I was able to crank as much power as I could for the reasonable about of money I spent. $250 aem intake, $700 2.5" race header, $600 3" catback exhaust, $200 mounts, $200 pulleys, $700 ecu reflash kit. So for roughly $2650 I was able to crank another 50whp out of that thing. A good exhaust for the S2000 might cost you half of all that.

While it remains to be seen what the FA20 in the FRS/BRZ can do, I'd be willing to wager there's a ridiculous amount of bottled up power there (like all Subby's) compared to the F20C in the S2000.

You also have to take into consideration the engine design. The S2000 was an oversquare (larger bore than stroke length) motor, while the FA20 is a square (86x86) architecture.. so the FRS/BRS has an advantage with low-end power. The F20C will rev easier, but the FA20 only needs to get to 7000 so it's not as big a deal.

It's fairly well known that the F-series motors were far more optimized from Honda than the B/H/K series were. Not 'maxed out' from the factory, but it took a lot of effort to get gains from them, comparatively. While it remains to be seen how the FA20 will fare, I have a hunch that there will be a lot to gain for relatively cheap.

Stock for stock, the S2000 may be a better option, but if you plan to mod, the FRS/BRZ seems like a better choice to me. On top of all that, you're dealing with a newer tech motor on the FRS/BRZ. Direct injection will be an interesting addition to the ECU tuning process, I can't wait to see what we'll be getting with a little tune here and there.

[Z.Tune]

If I were u, i ll keep the S2K

for me, the only thing that FRS wins is the extra 2 seats, and a bigger trunk? I didn't drive it yet, so i dun know the handling.

other than that, how can u beat the S2K? 9K red line engine! top down to feel the sun, light weight and super handling.

they both looking good in my opinion, but the S2K looks more like my taste.

I have problem between FRS and my 370Z, lol. But i need the seats tho.

[fatoni]

i hear the frs handles better from people with serious time behind both wheels. i dont think the brz has enough in common with other subarus to say that there is tons of power waiting to be freed. between the cr, di and cam, i dont see much being left to go get

[YukiHachiRoku]

found this clip recently, s2k sounds so damn sexy.

Sonata vs S2000 - YouTube

[Coheed]

Wow, S2k are sooo slow. The BRZ is slower, but still.

[iLuveKetchup]

lol... I 100% agree that the s2k is slow on the street. And I wouldn't want one if it's just to drive around town. But for those who think that the s2k doesn't perform or is a dog, you really REALLY need to get it out on the autocross and/or track. This is where the s2k shines. Hardparkers and street racers need not apply (sadly it seems that they are becoming the demographic for the s2k). This is just IMO.

The benefit of the BRZ/FR-S over the s2k:
- no need a roll bar/cage to go on track
- no need for a tire trailer (room for race wheels/tires in the trunk)
- more space
- has bluetooth and NAV
- steering

I'm not saying the s2k is the best sports car out there. But it certainly is the best one for the price range. The next competitor is in a different performance/price bracket - Lotus & Porsche.

[cokelemon]

Originally Posted by iLuveKetchup

lol... I 100% agree that the s2k is slow on the street. And I wouldn't want one if it's just to drive around town. But for those who think that the s2k doesn't perform or is a dog, you really REALLY need to get it out on the autocross and/or track. This is where the s2k shines. Hardparkers and street racers need not apply (sadly it seems that they are becoming the demographic for the s2k). This is just IMO.

The benefit of the BRZ/FR-S over the s2k:
- no need a roll bar/cage to go on track
- no need for a tire trailer (room for race wheels/tires in the trunk)
- more space
- has bluetooth and NAV
- steering

I'm not saying the s2k is the best sports car out there. But it certainly is the best one for the price range. The next competitor is in a different performance/price bracket - Lotus & Porsche.

well said.

[Secondhandloser]

Originally Posted by eriktherod

Well, stock for stock is one entirely different debate. Once you start talking about modding and such, you enter a different realm.

Not to dog the S2000, while I never owned one I wish I would have had the chance to. I did have a K20 Si that I did a bunch of bolt-on work to, and many S2000 owners were jealous that I was able to crank as much power as I could for the reasonable about of money I spent. $250 aem intake, $700 2.5" race header, $600 3" catback exhaust, $200 mounts, $200 pulleys, $700 ecu reflash kit. So for roughly $2650 I was able to crank another 50whp out of that thing. A good exhaust for the S2000 might cost you half of all that.

While it remains to be seen what the FA20 in the FRS/BRZ can do, I'd be willing to wager there's a ridiculous amount of bottled up power there (like all Subby's) compared to the F20C in the S2000.

You also have to take into consideration the engine design. The S2000 was an oversquare (larger bore than stroke length) motor, while the FA20 is a square (86x86) architecture.. so the FRS/BRS has an advantage with low-end power. The F20C will rev easier, but the FA20 only needs to get to 7000 so it's not as big a deal.

It's fairly well known that the F-series motors were far more optimized from Honda than the B/H/K series were. Not 'maxed out' from the factory, but it took a lot of effort to get gains from them, comparatively. While it remains to be seen how the FA20 will fare, I have a hunch that there will be a lot to gain for relatively cheap.

Stock for stock, the S2000 may be a better option, but if you plan to mod, the FRS/BRZ seems like a better choice to me. On top of all that, you're dealing with a newer tech motor on the FRS/BRZ. Direct injection will be an interesting addition to the ECU tuning process, I can't wait to see what we'll be getting with a little tune here and there.

Both the fa and the f will require boost to do anything meaningful, and the f20c is very much proven to love boost.

[Marrk]

The S2000 was not the best sports car. Nor was it perfect. It was just the best sports car for the money.

Boost? If you have to, I guess. But HP for HP's sake never interested me. Generally speaking, most of the people that buy these cars cannot drive them to the limit with OEM HP. More HP is kind of a vanity thing. Although I think the FRS-BRZ is underpowered at 200 hp. 240-250 is about perfect for 2600-2800 lbs. If they bring out an NA version with 250 hp, it will kill.

[eriktherod]

Originally Posted by Secondhandloser

Both the fa and the f will require boost to do anything meaningful, and the f20c is very much proven to love boost.

I agree that boost would help both cars, but with bolt-ons I feel the F20C (AP1 S2K) doesn't compare to what the FA20 (FRS/BRZ) will. Of course, that has yet to be tested but Nameless/PERRIN and many others have shown that great gains can be made with just bolt-ons, similar to the K20. That, and I feel that parts for the FRS/BRZ won't cost you an arm and a leg for slight gains, as the S2000 did.

As I said, I admire the S2000 for it's a beast of a car especially for the time it was released. I always wanted one and I feel like the FRS is my S2000, since Honda has its pants down currently.

[Secondhandloser]

Originally Posted by eriktherod

I agree that boost would help both cars, but with bolt-ons I feel the F20C (AP1 S2K) doesn't compare to what the FA20 (FRS/BRZ) will. Of course, that has yet to be tested but Nameless/PERRIN and many others have shown that great gains can be made with just bolt-ons, similar to the K20. That, and I feel that parts for the FRS/BRZ won't cost you an arm and a leg for slight gains, as the S2000 did.

As I said, I admire the S2000 for it's a beast of a car especially for the time it was released. I always wanted one and I feel like the FRS is my S2000, since Honda has its pants down currently.

Since you are just speculating at this point, I guess we will just have to wait and see how the FA20 responds.

I hope it does well. I'd love to see the FA20 rip it with bolt-ons. That said, I've never really seen an NA boxer respond well to mods.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Secondhandloser

I've never really seen an NA boxer respond well to mods.

thats because there's never really been a N/A production boxer from subaru that was built for high performance.

subaru's are better known for consistently good economy and averaging mediocre output at very low powerband

never have they attempted a pure sports car that was built around the premis of N/A. Even if they have entered and won several rallies in the the past with their N/A sports sedans.

FA20 is a much different outlook on performance for Subaru, n/a and turbocharged.

[Secondhandloser]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

thats because there's never really been a N/A production boxer from subaru that was built for high performance.

subaru's are better known for consistently good economy and averaging mediocre output at very low powerband

never have they attempted a pure sports car that was built around the premis of N/A. Even if they have entered and won several rallies in the the past with their N/A sports sedans.

FA20 is a much different outlook on performance for Subaru, n/a and turbocharged.

I was always impressed with the factory performance of the EJs in the RS's(bearing in mind the time), but I guess "built for high performance" is somewhat subjective.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Secondhandloser

I was always impressed with the factory performance of the EJs in the RS's(bearing in mind the time), but I guess "built for high performance" is somewhat subjective.

well the EJ251-EJ254...found in the impreza RS was also found in the rest of the Subaru cars with absolutely no variation. The performance on the impreza RS was better due to the fact that it was the lightest car out of the fleet making bringing fourth a stronger p:w compared to its sisters.

So whatever engine performance the RS had...it was the same as the rest of the subaru fleet from 00-onward. Which was campaigned for reliability and was appropriately built (even if somewhat lacking) to support most AWD subarus.

when we talk about designed/built for high performance...we mostly consider structure, among many different factors and not just total power output on a given powerband.

So yeah, "built for high performance" can be sorta subjective. But the majority of designers and engineers will share similar theory when given the task to build a high performance engine to meet a certain goal.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

thats because there's never really been a N/A production boxer from subaru that was built for high performance.

subaru's are better known for consistently good economy and averaging mediocre output at very low powerband

never have they attempted a pure sports car that was built around the premis of N/A. Even if they have entered and won several rallies in the the past with their N/A sports sedans.

FA20 is a much different outlook on performance for Subaru, n/a and turbocharged.

My 4EAT EJ22 Legacy disagrees with you. Heh...