Odd one out; my 2nd test drive

[Ryephile]

I'm starting a new thread so I don't continue to highjack NWIguys' thread. To read my 1st test drive stream-of-conciousness review, -->Click Here<--


Well guys, as promised, I went and drove my BRZ a 2nd time before making a final decision. Forum member eikond met me at my dealership to take a look at the car and talk about our experiences thus far. He's a very nice guy and I wish him luck in picking up his BRZ in the next week or so.

No pictures this time around, I was very focused on getting to the bottom of the driving experience.

First of all, the car is very easy to drive. Among all the cars I've driven, this one is definitely one of the easiest to get behind the wheel and be familiar with rather quickly. A big contributing factor is undoubtedly the controls inherent familiarity. The clutch is easy, the steering is accurate, the throttle is definitive, the ergonomics are spot-on, the shifter is precise, and the brakes feel solid and confidence inspiring. There isn't anything the car does wrong from a controls perspective.

The view from the drivers seat is interesting. You have a commanding view in front of you, but the fenders are just slightly there poking up very petite so you know exactly where the tires are. Strangely to me, however, is the cowl is also rather visible, which breaks up any visual flow that may have occurred between the Instrument Panel and the fender perkies. It's just a quirk, nothing distracting per se. Visibility on either side is excellent, and the mirrors are very good too. The C-pillar is chunky, but between the top-shelf side visibility and mirrors, it's a non-issue in traffic.

This drive I was very careful with my route selection. I needed to get a solid feel of how the car was on the interstate, as that's my daily drive, but also with some known corners and ramps that I can directly analyze and compare with other cars. Luckily, the general manager was indifferent to my presence and let me take the car out myself. This is good, no distractions this time!

Accelerating down the on-ramp, the car moves along well enough, but the sound from the engine doesn't portray any additional sense of occasion compared to low RPM cruising. The engine's power is modest, there isn't any significant thrust; the car must be driven in anger [i.e. right foot flat] to extract anything resembling its best effort. At Interstate speeds [70 MPH], part throttle in this engine amounts to simply more noise, not necessarily more speed. Downshifting to 3rd seems mandatory to actually get out of the way. The engine does its best work in the first two gears; aero and gearing team up at higher speeds and don't suffer the engine lightly.

With known curves and ramps, with the car turning close to the limit, it has a keen desire to turn in; there's no sign of slip angle below the limit. That said, take the corner slower and easier and the suspension feels indifferent and aloof, as if the corner isn't important enough for it to pay attention. This slightly wobbly feeling also rears its head in Interstate lane-changes, where the chassis feels like it's floating rather than being tied down. Keeping the car in the lane isn't nearly as straightforward as at lower speeds, as the steering now feels a bit vague whereas at slower surface-street speeds it feels positive and direct. These are on concrete roads that lack tramline-inducing contours, for what it's worth. I did get one opportunity to get some ass-out action. This was in a low-speed left-hander. The car rotated precisely, I gave it a bit more steering flick and stayed on the throttle and the car pivoted on itself and gave me exactly as much slip-angle as I was expecting. The only snag in this experience was the steering weighted up and got a bit numb, instead of having a strong self-oppostie-lock like a car with sufficient caster.

Overall, I think this car is a few steps away from being truly great. The foundation is there, it just needs some work. I've decided to pass on this opportunity and await future offerings, whether they be OEM or aftermarket. Give this car a set of lungs so it sings, more engine torque to balance how much cornering power it has, and a good suspension revision to bolt the chassis to the pavement and take the wobble out of it, and the car will be fantastic. The vibe I get from this car is one "my first real sports car", where the car offers legitimate thrills and driver-centric responsibility in a package that is both clean-slate and affordable. I do think the car will be a success, and I hope to participate further in the future.


Regards and Cheers,
Ryan



P.S. my pre-order WRB Limited 6MT is up for grabs at Hodges in Ferndale, MI if anyone is interested. I promise I drove it responsibly and dynamically according to a proper break-in, and wouldn't hesitate it upon anyone. One snag; the dashboard left woofer is either not screwed down correctly or is blown from the factory. Even with FM radio at minor levels it was obvious there is a problem. That'll have to be sorted and hopefully the dealership [whom I made aware of the problem] will be responsive.

[ngabdala]

Thanks SO much for the review. This is the best review I've heard to date. Someone that really wanted to get this car but went into it making decisions on fact rather than getting carried away with emotions and purchasing.

I will keep this in mind when I get my test drive. It's nice to know these things. If I find that my observations are the same as yours then you will have saved me $30k. And, if not, you've given me an idea of what to look for to see if I have the same experience and if I don't I would buy it.

Much appreciated!

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I'm starting a new thread so I don't continue to highjack NWIguys' thread. To read my 1st test drive stream-of-conciousness review, -->Click Here<--


Well guys, as promised, I went and drove my BRZ a 2nd time before making a final decision. Forum member eikond met me at my dealership to take a look at the car and talk about our experiences thus far. He's a very nice guy and I wish him luck in picking up his BRZ in the next week or so.

No pictures this time around, I was very focused on getting to the bottom of the driving experience.

First of all, the car is very easy to drive. Among all the cars I've driven, this one is definitely one of the easiest to get behind the wheel and be familiar with rather quickly. A big contributing factor is undoubtedly the controls inherent familiarity. The clutch is easy, the steering is accurate, the throttle is definitive, the ergonomics are spot-on, the shifter is precise, and the brakes feel solid and confidence inspiring. There isn't anything the car does wrong from a controls perspective.

The view from the drivers seat is interesting. You have a commanding view in front of you, but the fenders are just slightly there poking up very petite so you know exactly where the tires are. Strangely to me, however, is the cowl is also rather visible, which breaks up any visual flow that may have occurred between the Instrument Panel and the fender perkies. It's just a quirk, nothing distracting per se. Visibility on either side is excellent, and the mirrors are very good too. The C-pillar is chunky, but between the top-shelf side visibility and mirrors, it's a non-issue in traffic.

This drive I was very careful with my route selection. I needed to get a solid feel of how the car was on the interstate, as that's my daily drive, but also with some known corners and ramps that I can directly analyze and compare with other cars. Luckily, the general manager was indifferent to my presence and let me take the car out myself. This is good, no distractions this time!

Accelerating down the on-ramp, the car moves along well enough, but the sound from the engine doesn't portray any additional sense of occasion compared to low RPM cruising. The engine's power is modest, there isn't any significant thrust; the car must be driven in anger [i.e. right foot flat] to extract anything resembling its best effort. At Interstate speeds [70 MPH], part throttle in this engine amounts to simply more noise, not necessarily more speed. Downshifting to 3rd seems mandatory to actually get out of the way. The engine does its best work in the first two gears; aero and gearing team up at higher speeds and don't suffer the engine lightly.

With known curves and ramps, with the car turning close to the limit, it has a keen desire to turn in; there's no sign of slip angle below the limit. That said, take the corner slower and easier and the suspension feels indifferent and aloof, as if the corner isn't important enough for it to pay attention. This slightly wobbly feeling also rears its head in Interstate lane-changes, where the chassis feels like it's floating rather than being tied down. Keeping the car in the lane isn't nearly as straightforward as at lower speeds, as the steering now feels a bit vague whereas at slower surface-street speeds it feels positive and direct. These are on concrete roads that lack tramline-inducing contours, for what it's worth. I did get one opportunity to get some ass-out action. This was in a low-speed left-hander. The car rotated precisely, I gave it a bit more steering flick and stayed on the throttle and the car pivoted on itself and gave me exactly as much slip-angle as I was expecting. The only snag in this experience was the steering weighted up and got a bit numb, instead of having a strong self-oppostie-lock like a car with sufficient caster.

Overall, I think this car is a few steps away from being truly great. The foundation is there, it just needs some work. I've decided to pass on this opportunity and await future offerings, whether they be OEM or aftermarket. Give this car a set of lungs so it sings, more engine torque to balance how much cornering power it has, and a good suspension revision to bolt the chassis to the pavement and take the wobble out of it, and the car will be fantastic. The vibe I get from this car is one "my first real sports car", where the car offers legitimate thrills and driver-centric responsibility in a package that is both clean-slate and affordable. I do think the car will be a success, and I hope to participate further in the future.


Regards and Cheers,
Ryan



P.S. my pre-order WRB Limited 6MT is up for grabs at Hodges in Ferndale, MI if anyone is interested. I promise I drove it responsibly and dynamically according to a proper break-in, and wouldn't hesitate it upon anyone. One snag; the dashboard left woofer is either not screwed down correctly or is blown from the factory. Even with FM radio at minor levels it was obvious there is a problem. That'll have to be sorted and hopefully the dealership [whom I made aware of the problem] will be responsive.

[kyolml]

great, someone finally spoke up and sacraficed himself as the hater of this forum

Seriously, for the price, no matter how fundamental sounds it should be or could be, it shouldn't and can't beat the X5M (or whatever the beast that cost a lot and shouldn't be sporty) in term's of purely control feel of the driving dynamic because all the non physics involved aspects that was artificially put into the package. And it's because 1. BMW (or whatever brand) charged the money for it 2. When it cost that much, it should feel good, and there should be no price subsitution on how it should feel.

[ayau]

Ryephile, would you say the s2000 CR is more appropriate for your tastes?

[bucket]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

The car rotated precisely, I gave it a bit more steering flick and stayed on the throttle and the car pivoted on itself and gave me exactly as much slip-angle as I was expecting. The only snag in this experience was the steering weighted up and got a bit numb, instead of having a strong self-oppostie-lock like a car with sufficient caster.

The Dave Point in this car is not good!? That is potentially worrying and there aren't really any reviews so far that have mentioned it good or bad. Thank you for the review...I might have keep an extra $15k in the back of my mind for a Cayman now.

[feedbag]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I promise I drove it responsibly and dynamically according to a proper break-in

How were you able to properly evaluate the car if you didn't take it above 4,000 RPM, where the bulk of the torque and horsepower are?

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by feedbag

How were you able to properly evaluate the car if you didn't take it above 4,000 RPM, where the bulk of the torque and horsepower are?

Torque isn't substantially higher above 4k. 3-4k is enough to get the idea of how it's gonna pull in each gear. It's just gonna do it longer and sound louder.

[reni]

To be fair though, OP lives in the heart of flyover country where roads are completely straight and flat (well, except for all the potholes). I'm not sure I'd want a real sports car in that environment either.

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

It's just gonna do it longer and sound louder.

"That's what she said."

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by ayau

Ryephile, would you say the s2000 CR is more appropriate for your tastes?

I haven't driven the CR, but both AP1 and AP2 versions of the S2000 are big favorites of mine. I would say the BRZ's handling is more balanced at the limit, however the S2k is more visceral and communicative.

Originally Posted by bucket

The Dave Point in this car is not good!? That is potentially worrying and there aren't really any reviews so far that have mentioned it good or bad. Thank you for the review...I might have keep an extra $15k in the back of my mind for a Cayman now.

I wouldn't say it's bad, just not as amazing as the Miata, P-cars, etc..

Originally Posted by feedbag

How were you able to properly evaluate the car if you didn't take it above 4,000 RPM, where the bulk of the torque and horsepower are?

I'm assuming you're referring to the arbitrary 4k RPM "break-in" guidelines that Subaru's lawyers wrote into a technical blurb. As such, limiting engine operation to 4k RPM when it's operational parameters far exceed that will only exasperate ring sealing and bearing surface problems down the road. Engine manufacturers are free to implement time, temp, and mileage based engine operational limits; why do you suppose they rarely do if such allegedly strict operational requirements dictate adequate break-in? The best thing that can be written in an owners manual regarding engine break-in is: "Be dynamic; variably and intermittently touch all the load and RPM points possible within the first 20 miles". The reason for dynamicism is so you don't inadvertently create resonances, modes, or nodes in wear components during their bedding process. If you've ever bed-in a set of track-appropriate brake pads, it's rather corollary, albeit much quicker since there's no oil film separating components.

Originally Posted by reni

To be fair though, OP lives in the heart of flyover country where roads are completely straight and flat (well, except for all the potholes). I'm not sure I'd want a real sports car in that environment either.

I do? They are? Irish Hills, Hell/Dexter, Waterford/Clarkston, not to mention all the shenanigans around "the mess" and I-696. You'd have to be blind or caged to not find good fun roads here, barring comparison to the Smoky Mountains of course.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

As such, limiting engine operation to 4k RPM when it's operational parameters far exceed that will only exasperate ring sealing and bearing surface problems down the road.
...
"Be dynamic; variably and intermittently touch all the load and RPM points possible within the first 20 miles".

Credibility lost.

[armythug]

Honest review I can appreciate that. So which other cars do you have in mind that are better? Which other cars would you consider owning?

[Bristecom]

I wonder if that high speed cornering instability you get is from the MacPherson strut design. Every MacPherson strut car I've driven gives me a floaty feeling from the front at higher speeds which I dislike.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I'm starting a new thread so I don't continue to highjack NWIguys' thread. To read my 1st test drive stream-of-conciousness review, -->Click Here<--


Well guys, as promised, I went and drove my BRZ a 2nd time before making a final decision.............................

Ryephile, thanks for sharing the experience! You are not alone in what you say BTW. Iv been reading some owner blogs of GT86 and BRZ in japan, and many have stated very similar feelings. One reoccurring theme is, "The car feels incomplete". Meaning the car has all the right qualities but hits the mark just short of amazing.

Even if you skip out during this time on getting the car. Don't be a stranger! your still one of us!

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Ryephile, thanks for sharing the experience! You are not alone in what you say BTW. Iv been reading some owner blogs of GT86 and BRZ in japan, and many have stated very similar feelings. One reoccurring theme is, "The car feels incomplete". Meaning the car has all the right qualities but hits the mark just short of amazing.

Even if you skip out during this time on getting the car. Don't be a stranger! your still one of us!

What Josh said.

I'll wait it out. If I'm going to invest 30k in something. It better be damn amazing.

[Phaedrus29]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I haven't driven the CR, but both AP1 and AP2 versions of the S2000 are big favorites of mine. I would say the BRZ's handling is more balanced at the limit, however the S2k is more visceral and communicative.



I wouldn't say it's bad, just not as amazing as the Miata, P-cars, etc..

Have you driven the FRS? I'm wondering if you'd perceive something different in the handling.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Phaedrus29

Have you driven the FRS? I'm wondering if you'd perceive something different in the handling.

I was kind of afraid to say it but I wonder this as well. Could the small suspension tweaks make that big of a difference? I have heard many reviewers say there was something lacking with the BRZ's handling but I don't think I've heard any say the same for the FR-S. Although, with that said, I think what he found displeasing is likely more fundamental with the car's design. But a good set of coilovers would probably do wonders for this car.

[Xlr8]

Very good post. Good to hear from someone who is not beholden to advertisers and manufactures. Honest thoughts about a potential car purchase looking past all the hype. I like it. To me cars, like motorcycles, women, churches, etc. are not perfect. There is never a perfect anything for everyone. It's a matter of personal preferences and compromises that you can live with. If it needs a little tuning or a nip tuck etc. and it's economically feasible then so be it. Get what you want and can live with.

[SUB-FT86]

Rye, thanks for this informative review. It sounds like a RWD RSX to me with all that you have mentioned. I love my RSX but hate the engine.

[BRZ4me]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

I wonder if that high speed cornering instability you get is from the MacPherson strut design. Every MacPherson strut car I've driven gives me a floaty feeling from the front at higher speeds which I dislike.

The Porsche Cayman uses "modified" MacPherson struts - front & rear. Maybe the modified part makes all the difference, or the fact that most of the steel has been replaced by forged aluminum?

Check out this recent Cayman R suspension walk around.

[DEC1]

hmmmm... I don't have anywhere near the experience or driving chops to do such a detailed review...but...I'm guessing that for most of us those subtleties won't be sensed or missed.
Kudos to you for basing your decision on the driving dynamics important to you. It feels to me, however, that you are measuring a table wine with standards required of a master vintage.
And honestly I'm having a hard time reconciling your review against all the others from similarly (or perhaps more) seasoned writers and reviewers...like MT's article that calls the BRZ #1 against FRS, VW GTI, Mustang, Miata, and Genesis (which came in last btw)
In any case, good luck in your search for perfection.

[Rampage]

Good honest review. All cars are a compromise in some way to reach the largest audience possible. It is apparent to me that Toyota and Subaru made this car as good as they possibly could without alienating too many potential buyers. They also made it very clear that they expect some buyers to use their design as a starting point that can be tailored to what the customer really wants through the use of aftermarket parts.

In its current form, this car is apparently not what the OP is looking for and that is fine. For those of you that are buying into the "son of the AE86" marketing hype please remember that the AE86 was a pretty mundane car as it came from the factory. The FR-S/BRZ is a very good car directly from the factory but it is also one that can be easily (but not cheaply) modified to suit the whims of a multitude of enthusiast drivers. Some people will be happy to keep it stock. Many others will not.