When does driving MT get "fun"

[Jeff Lange]

You don't shift into 1st when slowing down in most cars, the ratio is too short and it puts a lot of wear on the synchros, however "no engine braking" signs are for diesel trucks that have engine retarder brakes. They are not meant to, nor do they, apply to passenger vehicles.

Jeff

[Slartibartfast]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lange

"No engine braking" signs are for diesel trucks that have engine retarder brakes. They are not meant, nor do they, apply to passenger vehicles.

Jeff

[Jeff Lange]

Just a quick follow up to the comments that had been happening before, and that is to say that there are no hard and fast rules on when to downshift and when to coast, what is right for one situation may not be right for all situations. There are times when I don't downshift to 2nd, just stopping at 3rd, and I'm not always going from 6-5-4-3-2 either, that's just a lot of wasted shifts. Skipping gears is common practice even when downshifting, and is typically taught by professional driving schools (this again isn't always the best, look at the S2000 thread linked to earlier).

If you are in 6th, downshifting from there to 3rd while braking/rev-matching and then slowing down to about 1500-2000rpm before clutching in is often probably appropriate, or similar.

I'm just saying, being in gear is almost always more appropriate than not being in gear, and being in a gear that can give you a somewhat usable powerband to get out of dangerous situations instead of hitting the gas in neutral is preferable. Everyone's driving style is different, and you will develop what works best for you in time. Some people like to shift earlier, some people prefer higher rpms.

There's not much more satisfying when driving a manual transmission than a perfect rev-matched heel-toe downshift. If you've practiced and know the car, you can pretty much do it almost perfectly every time. There is minimal wear on the clutch. I've pulled clutches out of my cars at 80-90,000 kms or more and it still looks almost new.

If you're looking not to wear components out, and you are not comfortable rev-matching or heel-toeing, by all means don't do it, but that doesn't mean it is the correct way to do it, or that you are driving "better".

I'm not recommending people be shifting all the time and to every gear every time they're accelerating/slowing down. For example if you are on the highway coming up to a turn-off and you are slowing down in say 5th and you slow down in gear and get to the corner and you feel you should be in 2nd, go to 2nd and continue on your way, but I would not suggest clutching in or going to neutral and then coasting/braking with the engine disengaged and then going into 2nd. That is wearing out more components than just staying in the gear and simply shifting to second.

In that situation I would probably go 5-4-2 or 5-3-2, but honestly every corner is different, speeds are different, surroundings are different.

Basically: Read/watch/learn as much as you can both about how the car works and why things are the way they are and you can get the most from your car for a long period. My main point is that, in most cases, is is almost always preferable to be in some gear while slowing down, and not in neutral or pushing in the clutch until you are at a low speed.

Jeff

[ArKiTeCkT]

^

[Sport-Tech]

I would totally agree with Jeff that being in neutral in city driving is not a great idea, but in the city I am rarely higher than 4th gear. I decelerate in that gear to about 10 mph at which point pushing in the clutch will not cause me any safety issues as I come to a stop (I use common sense based on my situation of course).

As to heel-toe, my experience after several hours of practice on a simulator is that it's far from easy to get it right and it would take a long, long time to get it to the point where I would feel I could do it safely in busy traffic without getting distracted in an unsafe way from what is going on around me, as it takes all of my focus away from the road (much like fiddling with a cell phone). I doubt more than 1% of manual drivers heel-toe downshift, learning it is such a PITA. YMMV, I am not a pro athlete. You also have to think about the strain you put on your drivetrain as you're learning, as you make hundreds of wildly inaccurate attempts to revmatch. Gentle use of the clutch will mitigate wear due to uneven rev matching if you downshift without heel-toe while in motion, or you can momentarily take your foot off the brake and tap the accelerator before you let the clutch out for the lower gear.

As to the "no engine braking" it's true most such signs are for trucks, however in my neighbourhood I have seen a few on arterial but residential roads where big trucks are banned.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by bneale

First of all, nobody said anything was wrong with an Auto.

when you state real sports cars mostly come in manual, you're inversly stating that anything that is not manual is not a real sports car

should i draw a venn diagram for you?

Originally Posted by bneale

You're just trying to be an ass here.

Yes, i am, because muddy thoughts annoy me.

Originally Posted by bneale

Same with the next statement. When it comes to a DSG transmission, in my opinion its not a true manual.

you're entitled to your opinion, but my opinion of your opinion is that it is outdated and rooted in some sort of prehistoric notion of car involvement. You are a man standing in court proclaiming the world is flat.

Originally Posted by bneale

You're grasping at straws for an argument.

Well, when you throw a whole hay bale at me...


nom nom nom

[SEC]

A point I don't think has been made is that the biggest benefit of a MT is control. With a MT there's a direct connection between the engine and the drive wheels. With most AT, there's some slipping. A MT also lets you keep the engine revs where you want them. The benefit? When you're driving a car like the FR-S/BR-Z you use the throttle to control the attitude of the car in a corner. At the limit, modulating the gas will allow you to tighen your line (by easing off the gas). Or, you can induce some power-oversteer (if you dare).

To answer the OP question, a MT will be more fun when your comfortable enough to do some spirited driving. It'll help you develop car control skills. There is also something really satisfing about doing a quick downshift while braking hard for a corner. I've not driven a car with the newer DSG-type box, but I can't imagine it would be anywhere near as satisfing to drive.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by SEC

A point I don't think has been made is that the biggest benefit of a MT is control. With a MT there's a direct connection between the engine and the drive wheels. With most AT, there's some slipping. A MT also lets you keep the engine revs where you want them. The benefit? When you're driving a car like the FR-S/BR-Z you use the throttle to control the attitude of the car in a corner. At the limit, modulating the gas will allow you to tighen your line (by easing off the gas). Or, you can induce some power-oversteer (if you dare).

You'll get 95% of this control with the FR-S auto, as it's got a locking torque converter for all gears but the first, and shifts faster than you would be able to do yourself with a manual. The only thing you won't be able to do is high-rpm clutch dumps, which aren't great for your car anyways. Using the paddles in manual mode, it functions basically like a clutchless manual. Too bad about the wide gear ratios for it though, they add more than a second to the 1/4 mile time.

[Sport-Tech]

I may have overstated the difficulty on learning to heel - toe. After a few hours yesterday on the simulator I was not making much progress but after 2 hours lapping Laguna Seca just now it's really starting to come to me - blipping for one gear drops is getting pretty automatic. (I switched the gearshift to sequential mode to simplify the shifting so I could focus on the heel-toe action.) So there is hope for all, I am not the most coordinated guy with my feet!

Doing 2 or 3 drops quickly in succession, as you would on a GT3 car on full braking coming into the corkscrew, is tougher. I have a tendency to lift my right foot off the brake to some degree when I lift off the clutch between downshifts which results of course in underbraking and bingo I am in the sand...

At some point I will have to try this with my real car, but not yet.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Doing 2 or 3 drops quickly in succession, as you would on a GT3 car on full braking coming into the corkscrew, is tougher. I have a tendency to lift my right foot off the brake to some degree when I lift off the clutch between downshifts which results of course in underbraking and bingo I am in the sand...

brake(hold), clutch (hold), paddle, paddle, paddle, gas (hard blip)+ release clutch, release brake.


remember there is no need to shift all gears down.. at all

when you are braking for a turn, your goal is to slow down to the speed that your car will navigate through that turn. So the only variable here is brake.

once you get down to that speed your next goal is to hold that speed by applying throttle

the whole problem comes from the need to be in your engines proper power band by a) not bogging down b) not over-revving. The first slowing you down and the second causing you to spin.

So this is where heel-toe comes in, you only need to do it once, and you only need to do it the second before you need to get back on the gas.

in the case of paddle shifters you need to give yourself more time, so you simply hold the clutch earlier as you brake and start to machine gun down to the gear you want.

[Sport-Tech]

^ Thanks, yes I had tried using that method as it is simpler, but unless you are in an open-wheeled or prototype racer there are one or two seconds between gear shifts when you are braking hard that you would optimally like to apply engine braking to. Treating each downshift as independent rather than holding the clutch down through all of them would move some of the braking stress from the brakes to the driveline - and should slightly aid high-speed braking performance.

I guess it depends on your heel-toe speed and skill level, and how much time you have between shifts, which technique you use. In the track tests the Best Motoring guys have done with the twins they seem to favour the multiple-blip approach to hard-braking downshifts, probably because there is more time available between shifts with such a "low-performance" car.

[SEC]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

You'll get 95% of this control with the FR-S auto, as it's got a locking torque converter for all gears but the first, and shifts faster than you would be able to do yourself with a manual. The only thing you won't be able to do is high-rpm clutch dumps, which aren't great for your car anyways. Using the paddles in manual mode, it functions basically like a clutchless manual. Too bad about the wide gear ratios for it though, they add more than a second to the 1/4 mile time.

Good point. I'd have to see what 95% feels like before passing judgment. The last three cars I bought I drove the AT before ordering the MT. I've yet to experience an automatic that has the direct feel I like from a MT. Granted, these were all "Sporty" cars, not sports cars. I do think that knocking off the perfect heal-toe downshit under hard braking is just too satisfing to be without. I also have to admit I'm bit biased after 27 years of driving stick.

[Turbowned]

I've driven numerous S4's, S5's, TT's and A3's with S-Tronic (DSG) gearboxes, an R8 V10 Spyder with R-Tronic (single clutch auto), a Porsche 911 Carrera S with PDK, and plenty of 8spd Tiptronic Audis as well. The best of the best, so to speak.

None of them were even remotely as much fun to drive as their manual-equipped counterparts. They just aren't. I'm sorry. No one is going to convince me that the torque converter-equipped automatic transmission is anywhere near as good as rowing them on your own. You're wasting your breath.

[7thgear]

^
all on a racetrack i assume?

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

At some point I will have to try this with my real car, but not yet.

Kinda makes all the text before it redundant really.

[Klinn]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

I've driven numerous S4's, S5's, TT's and A3's with S-Tronic (DSG) gearboxes, an R8 V10 Spyder with R-Tronic (single clutch auto), a Porsche 911 Carrera S with PDK, and plenty of 8spd Tiptronic Audis as well. The best of the best, so to speak.

None of them were even remotely as much fun to drive as their manual-equipped counterparts. They just aren't. I'm sorry. No one is going to convince me that the torque converter-equipped automatic transmission is anywhere near as good as rowing them on your own. You're wasting your breath.

I can understand your reluctance regarding a conventional torque converter type auto (e.g. the Tiptronic) but do you feel that the dual-clutch automated manual (e.g. DSG) is no better?

I've read that some still have issues but have never had the opportunity to try one myself.

[mattles]

I see we've got some professional level bench-racers here. Although, based on what Ive read on the past 2 pages alone, Im awarding the trophy for Best in Class Bench Racing Expert to 7thGear.

Congrats kid, you done good. Now get on out there and start debating aerodynamics because the only thing cooler than a bench-racer is an All-Pro Armchair Physicist.

[blu_]

I can't believe I missed this thread

[jenzan]

^^

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Klinn

I can understand your reluctance regarding a conventional torque converter type auto (e.g. the Tiptronic) but do you feel that the dual-clutch automated manual (e.g. DSG) is no better?

I've read that some still have issues but have never had the opportunity to try one myself.

I don't feel any real difference between the two. New automatics with manual shifting respond to your command within milliseconds, whereas older designs you'd have to wait up to 500rpm before the damn thing would shift. They should also blip the throttle on downshifts. They perform the same function, autos and DSG's, just done differently. They might be a little different out on a racetrack but as far as spirited street driving or putting around town is concerned, they shouldn't feel different. And since I'd expect <10% of us will ever take the car on a track, the time spent driving on the street is where it counts most.

I know they shift faster than a manual, and will eventually replace the manual completely. Hopefully I'll either be dead by then, or will have a spaceship and be well past caring about cars

Originally Posted by 7thgear

^
all on a racetrack i assume?

I will in August, at Monticello Motor Club - The Audi Experience training. I can say I have auto-x'ed an automatic NC Miata and Mazda3 before... I was yawning.

[Sport-Tech]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Kinda makes all the text before it redundant really.

?????????????? The issues and techniques are the same, real car or simulation. That is why it's called a simulation.

[Spaceywilly]

When I was first learning manual one of my college roommates had a G25 wheel and some racing sim game, I think it was iRacing, on his laptop. He hooked it up and I tried it and I was heel-toeing like a pro after about 5 minutes. Got back in my car and tried it and it did not go so well. It is 1000x more difficult to do in real life than in a game (I'm sorry, simulator). It's still not bad once you get the hang of it, but if you think you will be good at it in real life because you are good at it in the game you're in for a surprise.