When does driving MT get "fun"

[86'd]

To add to what everybody has said:

It becomes even more fun when you have a fun car to drive.

And in the OPs case, obviously once you're comfortable with it.

My Civic has a decent shifter but the clutch is a bit too long and it's difficult to heel and toe. In my old S2000 everything was perfect (as I assume the FRS is going to be) and made it MORE fun to drive.

Once you get the hang of MT it's like breathing. It's really something to know your car, what gear you're in just by the sound of the engine; just by rowing through the gears, holding a conversation and subconsciously knowing what gear you're in and which is next, finally blipping the throttle to rev match the downshift; it's like dancing on the pedals.

[bryan]

Originally Posted by RYU

I drove a MT in traffic from Pasadena to Santa Monica for 4 yrs. That's 20+ miles each way averaging 15-25mph with frequent stops. If that doesn't drive you crazy.. I don't know what will. This was in an S2000.

Any other time, even long distance hwy driving, I prefer a MT. However, in stop and go LA traffic.. i'd rather shoot myself.

There's little joy to driving in stop and go traffic regardless of your transmission. The only you would want in a situation like that is a good radio.

[Ad8707]

Just stick to it..you'll realize after that mt is the way to go..I was in the same position as you last year with the rsx..didn't hate it but it was frustrating. First day picking up the car was pretty embarrassing. Got to a mall to pick up gf but struggled to leave the Parking lot! Plus Downshifting on manual is soo fun

[TheJuggernaut]

I guess I'll be the one party pooper. Yes, after some time, this will become second nature and fear of things like rolling back and stalling will be gone.

But look, part of why it's more fun is it's more involving. In a way, that's a euphemism for doing more work. If you're spending an hour each way in stop and go traffic, doing more work is going to be more tedious. There's really no way around that. Does it mean it's impossible to live with a manual in excruciating traffic? Of course not. But just because you CAN do something it doesn't automatically mean you'll want to. Hell, if I could get a car with full auto pilot for rush hour, I'd get it, and so would all of you. There is no fun to be had there, you just want to get home with minimum grief.

So as far as I'm concerned, the real litmus test (which I took and ended up with a manual track car and automatic daily driver), is how much of your driving is this kind of commuting and how much is leisure? If you spend a few hours a day on the road, most of it in dense traffic, a lot of it in stop and go congestion, you're going to want an automatic. I know many will disagree but having been one of them, owning manual BMWs for 11 years and surviving traffic just fine (including a semi-weekly commute you're doing while I was at UW), I say this with absolutely no contempt and no intended offense, that this is delusion.

Once again, when the mechanical skill becomes subconsciously natural, driving a manual in traffic can be perfectly fine. But it will NEVER be as easy as an auto. So if this HAS to be your only car, while I think it's a shame (but only because ours is not intended for heavy traffic commuting but mostly strictly fun driving, like on track), in your situation, I wouldn't discount the auto. But I'd honestly recommend getting a 2nd car, like an older diesel Golf or Jetta, just for commuting, and keep the fun car with the fun transmission for fun driving.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by bneale

Jeff is on the right track for sure.

I'm guessing you simply choose the MT because it was cheaper. Not because you actually wanted to drive stick. Which is all fine and good if thats the reason why (not trying to call you cheap or anything), but you should have probably thought about that a little more.

Put it this way, almost all of the best driving cars in the world are manual only. The new BMW 1 M comes leaping to mind right now. Manual only.

I'm pretty sure the F430 ferrari was also Manual only until Mr.Longoria bought one for his wife Eva and had ferrari custom build an auto for her.

Ben

so where does something like DSG fit in your neat little argument?

[Chenslee]

I've been driving stick excursively for 18 years now.

First on your to-do list should be rev-matching. Rev-matching is when you predict what rpm the engine is going to be at when you let the clutch out, and use the gas pedal to manually put the engine at that rpm. Do it right and it eliminates all jerky. You can use it up shifting, but more importantly downshifting.

Next is heel-toe shifting. Heel-toe (which should be renamed rocker footing) is when you rev match like above, but also press the brake. This allows you to down shift smoothly while stopping at the same time. Eventually this becomes second nature.

Once you get those down, practice left foot braking. Left foot braking allows control over weight transfer during maneuvering. It also shaves precious milliseconds off of reaction times. Practice a little, and you can brake as smoothy with your left foot as with your right. I cover the brake with my left foot when moving through traffic on the highway and it feels much safer.

Finally, and you have to be really good and hate your transmission to do this, you can left foot brake AND downshift at the same time by rev matching and not using the clutch. Get it right, and you are lord of the trannys. Get it wrong and I suggest a magnet on your gearbox drain plug.

[Pbrown]

Originally Posted by Heero

Wow looks like there's alot of love for the MT out there! Thanks for the support everyone.

I'll admit I enjoy driving on open roads, but rush hour traffic really irks me. & Yes, I choose MT because it was cheaper, but also because of all the hype around driving a manual car lol

I still have another Couple weeks before the FRS rolls in to decide...

Quick questions for those who drive MT:

1. Whenever I shift gears (especially downshifting) my car jerks like the gears going in really rough. Do I just need to shift quicker? or more gas?

2. How do I control reverse gear? My reverse is pretty darn fast as soon as I release the clutch. ATM I'm just riding the clutch - but I'm guessing that's bad?

Thanks

Give it some time. It will become second nature, like its a part of you. The best pce of advice I can give you is do not downshift to slow the vehicle down, that is what brakes are for. When braking have the it nuetral and when you get to the speed that is appopriate for the situation just put it into the gear suitable for that speed. That will eliminate the jerkyness you are currently feeling and preserve your clutch.
Also I am 45 and used to drive auto's until a friend suggested the MT. Well its been 20 years now and I will never go back. Completely takes the fun out of it for me.

[TheJuggernaut]

Originally Posted by Chenslee

you can left foot brake AND downshift at the same time by rev matching and not using the clutch.

Not to tell anyone what to do but this is a bad idea and will kill a typical gearbox way before its time. It's not a matter of being a gearbox god but that modern street car transmissions use synchromesh. Think of it as a clutch on each gear designed to even the speed of the gear and the input shaft. These are relatively fragile but that's fine because they're designed to sync the speed of the input shaft and clutch alone, which have relatively low mass. If you try to shift without the clutch, these little clutches are now having to change the speed of the engine and it's not humanly possible to get the revs 100% right all the time so there will be intense wear on them whenever you do this.

Clutchless shifting is for non-synchro boxes, which, especially in racing applications, have straight cut gears which are very strong and large windows for the dogs to engage - so you have very good odds that even if you're off by 50-100rpm or something, you'll be able to slam it in.

[Heero]

Thanks for the tips everyone... When rev matching, do I:

1. Clutch pedal in
2. Press Gas
3. Down Shift
4. Clutch pedal Out

Or do I press the gas after I switch gears as I let the clutch out?

I think I'll give the MT a shot for a bit longer, but I'll get the FRS in auto just because of traffic + the fact that no1 in my family really drives MT.

Originally Posted by Saibot

uhh what car are you driving? SHARE

MX 6 with KLZE engine swap. I'll send you a text if you wana see it at loo.

Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut

So if this HAS to be your only car, while I think it's a shame (but only because ours is not intended for heavy traffic commuting but mostly strictly fun driving, like on track), in your situation, I wouldn't discount the auto. But I'd honestly recommend getting a 2nd car, like an older diesel Golf or Jetta, just for commuting, and keep the fun car with the fun transmission for fun driving.

Thanks for playing devils advocate I unfortunately can't afford 2 cars (especially not with the insurance rates we pay in the GTA...)

[TheJuggernaut]

Originally Posted by Heero

Thanks for the tips everyone... When rev matching, do I:

1. Clutch pedal in
2. Press Gas
3. Down Shift
4. Clutch pedal Out

Or do I press the gas after I switch gears as I let the clutch out?

No that's fine, it's just that after enough practice it will be a pretty fluid operation. You'll learn the dynamics of your engine and the ratio spacing of your transmission to get an organic feel for how much you need to rev. All cars are different too, which makes it even more enjoyable since it feels like personality. For instance, I can never shift a DA Integra smoothly because of it's massive flywheel, so by the time I'm ready with the next gear, the engine is still unwinding.

Originally Posted by Heero

Thanks for playing devils advocate I unfortunately can't afford 2 cars (especially not with the insurance rates we pay in the GTA...)

Well the thing is that if I'm the devil's advocate then I'm also the devil. When I was younger I was of the firm belief that automatics are for old farts who are dead inside, have no interest in cars and just need transportation. But I could only sell myself on that for so long. After a hard day's work or even worse, coming home from some intense physical activity, being stuck in traffic with a manual gets old and I finally realized that you need the right tool for the job.

I think what really changed the way I thought was when I started doing HPDEs and lapping days. At that point I realized that no street car will ever be as good as it could be on track due to mandatory compromises, and no street drive will ever be as fun as a track, also due to mandatory compromises (unless you have no concern for other people's lives).

So with all that in mind, I'm not saying get an auto 86. But you should aim to get a cheapie beater automatic for your commute. You should also get a PO box in Waterloo or ask a friend with a permanent address if you could change your insurance to be there. Insurance rates for KW area and GTA are on different planes of existence.

[Ad8707]

Originally Posted by Pbrown

Give it some time. It will become second nature, like its a part of you. The best pce of advice I can give you is do not downshift to slow the vehicle down, that is what brakes are for. When braking have the it nuetral and when you get to the speed that is appopriate for the situation just put it into the gear suitable for that speed. That will eliminate the jerkyness you are currently feeling and preserve your clutch.
Also I am 45 and used to drive auto's until a friend suggested the MT. Well its been 20 years now and I will never go back. Completely takes the fun out of it for me.

In regards to downshifting to slow the car down(engine braking) when approaching a stop from let's say 80km an hour, I use the brakes to slow down and kinda pop it into third when I'm on it's appropriate speed and let the clutch off (rpm will be between 2500to3000) so it would aid the brakes then sequentially go to second and first with the same technique. Is this really bad and wears out my clutch a lot?

[jenzan]

Originally Posted by Ad8707

In regards to downshifting to slow the car down(engine braking) when approaching a stop from let's say 80km an hour, I use the brakes to slow down and kinda pop it into third when I'm on it's appropriate speed and let the clutch off (rpm will be between 2500to3000) so it would aid the brakes then sequentially go to second and first with the same technique. Is this really bad and wears out my clutch a lot?

It wears out your clutch over time, but doesn't wear down your clutch a lot unless you're just letting go immediately. In which case you feel the huge jerk sensation which is the plate hitting your engine.

I personally rev match to make it a smooth transition. For a bunch of manual driving techniques here is helpful tutorial I found on Youtube.

How to Heel and toe, rev match, and double clutch

How to Heel and toe, rev match, and double clutch - YouTube

Enjoy!

[RYU]

Originally Posted by bryan

There's little joy to driving in stop and go traffic regardless of your transmission. The only you would want in a situation like that is a good radio.

I respectfully disagree. In my original scenario switching to a vehicle with AT was paramount to preserving my sanity.

I'm taking a leap of judgement here (apologies ahead of time) but unless you've driven in "LA" traffic you really have no idea. I've driven in Manila and by far you're stopped more times than you're moving so at times I almost prefer the rest. Living in LA.. it's a constant 1-2-stop-1-2 and i've tried many different combinations of shifting strategies to no avail.

MT is fun but sometimes one has to weight their priorities and make a compromise. I'm just glad the AT in this thing doesn't seem to be a sh*tbox.

[TheJuggernaut]

Originally Posted by jenzan

It wears out your clutch over time, but doesn't wear down your clutch a lot unless you're just letting go immediately. In which case you feel the huge jerk sensation which is the plate hitting your engine.

I personally rev match to make it a smooth transition.

+1 I even know very seasoned lappers and autocrossers who just use the clutch to rev the motor up. It's especially safe with lower compression or smaller motors, and if you do it soon enough (not quickly, for the reasons jenzan says, just you start the process without letting the motor wind down).

But rev matching is the proper way to do it and like driving manual at all, eventually heel and toe becomes so easy and natural that you do it with zero effort in all daily driving. Your passengers will appreciate it too. You will too if you ever go on the track and start driving near 100%, where lack of revmatching is going to be akin to yanking the handbrake into a turn. At best, it will upset the car.

[TheJuggernaut]

Originally Posted by RYU

Living in LA.. it's a constant 1-2-stop-1-2 and i've tried many different combinations of shifting strategies to no avail.

Haha yeah, and trying to do the 1st gear idle crawl with a big gap ahead will probably get you shot

[bneale]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

so where does something like DSG fit in your neat little argument?

DSG is sort of half way between the 2. In the simplest form its just a fancy Auto which you can command control over. In my opinion, no user operated clutch means its not really "Manual".

Also, its not really an argument. More like what most companies actually do when they're making "pure drivers cars". The BMW 1 M is comes leaping to mind.

bneale

[7thgear]

Audi seems to have no problem winning lemans with your "not really manual" gearbox, i guess that's not a real sports car then..

Using your 2nd foot in no way makes the car more sports like.

The whole point of a manual car is dictating what gear you are in, it's unfortunate that we require a crutch to operate it as such. The clutch is stone age technology. You people really need to start looking ahead.

And yes i said you people.

[Jeff Lange]

Fastest around a track? Probably not going to an M/T.
Pure driving car? Probably should have an M/T.

Jeff

[Ad8707]

Thanks for the link. Shouldve learned that double clutching long time ago. Better late than never just in time for a new fresh clutch on frs.

[Atticus808]

ive only driven manual for all of 10 minutes before.
so every time you downshift a gear you have to give gas as well? (stupid question sorry)

[Jeff Lange]

You don't have to, but you should.

When you are upshifting, the revs are already dropping, so you can catch it at the right spot for the next gear. When downshifting, the revs need to go up to match, you do this by blipping the throttle to get it to rev up. If you don't, the clutch spins up the engine to match, but this wears the clutch and in extreme situations can actually slow the tires down instead of revving the engine up (rain/ice), this can cause sliding/loss of control.

Jeff

[ArKiTeCkT]

Not sure if im doing this right but when im travelling on the highway 100km and exit I DO NOT DOWNSHIFT. I shift it to neutral when Im at 20-30km and come to a complete stop.