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Cosmetic Modification (Interior/Exterior/Lighting) Discussions about cosmetic mods.


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Old 05-07-2012, 12:10 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
First, let me say I have no issue with folks that want to change out the badges. I'd rather it was a Totota too, but not because of the "Scion culture" which does not seem to be as prevalent where I live. I see more heavily modified Hondas than Scions in this area. I would have just preferred Toyota.

I have to wonder though if folks really have such deep feelings about the Scion marketing brand, why would you support it financially when there is an alternative car on the market? From Toyota's prospective, if the FR-S becomes a successful make for Scion, then their experiment is working and you'll just see them do it with more cars, not fewer.

Just food for thought, not trying to stir anything up.
Lots of reasons. First and foremost for me, I prefer (from what I've seen and read) the FR-S's suspension setup. I also like the front-end look of the 86 to the BRZ. And a BIG reason I'm going for the 86 over the BRZ is because Subaru dealers are marking the BRZ's up a few grand over MSRP, whereas FR-S's are staying at MSRP (and are slightly cheaper to start with). Furthermore, there's only one Subaru dealership in my town, and I've heard nothing but horror stories about them. Do a search for Subaru of Las Vegas on here, and go get you a bowl of popcorn.

Can a lot of the stuff I just mentioned be changed with aftermarket parts? Yup. Can it be changed for cheaper than the $100 or so it would take to rebadge my car as a Toyota? Nope. Actually, I imagine if we all made a concerted effort to not on the customer survey forms that will be arriving in the mail post-purchase, that we would rather have seen this car marketed as a Toyota, I imagine they'll pay more attention to that than just to sales alone. Reading sales is like reading tea leaves; reading a customer feedback form is like, well... reading English.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:11 PM   #87
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Does any one know if the 86 Badges on the fender are held on with just adhesive or do they have pins too. If Imma debadge it Imma take em allll off. Having scion emblems doesn't bother me. I just want a nice clean look. Plus ill probably end up replacing the bumper n trunk anyways
The entire plate (not just the badge) is held on by two pins I believe. You can see them in the engine bay shots. Also the badge sits on a raised spot on the plate.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:56 PM   #88
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Im pretty much in the same mindset as TuxedoCartman. I was on the fence for a long while between the two cars but i just like the look of the FR-S better. I was going to leave it up to a test drive between the two cars (although i prefer a more neutral handling) but the fact that Subaru is going to be so limited and the ridiculous markups they set pretty much sealed it (maybe if they get prices and quantity under control when I'm actually in the market for this car but i don't think these problems are going away anytime soon). I ain't spending 6+ grand more for the subie badging.

And ironically even though i don't care at all for the Scion brand i can actually appreciate from a business standpoint why they're using Scion for the American market so it's not like i can really be mad at them for doing so. Scion as a whole hasn't really been doing well and this is Toyota's way of jump starting the brand. America is also a lot more brand conscious than most other places and if they can actually improve Scion's image they are in a better position to sell better considering the word Toyota here is synonymous with "boring". My personal choice though is I'd rather be associated with boring since i have yet to meet someone IRL who owns a Scion that I've actually liked.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:49 PM   #89
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Im pretty much in the same mindset as TuxedoCartman. I was on the fence for a long while between the two cars but i just like the look of the FR-S better. I was going to leave it up to a test drive between the two cars (although i prefer a more neutral handling) but the fact that Subaru is going to be so limited and the ridiculous markups they set pretty much sealed it (maybe if they get prices and quantity under control when I'm actually in the market for this car but i don't think these problems are going away anytime soon). I ain't spending 6+ grand more for the subie badging.

And ironically even though i don't care at all for the Scion brand i can actually appreciate from a business standpoint why they're using Scion for the American market so it's not like i can really be mad at them for doing so. Scion as a whole hasn't really been doing well and this is Toyota's way of jump starting the brand. America is also a lot more brand conscious than most other places and if they can actually improve Scion's image they are in a better position to sell better considering the word Toyota here is synonymous with "boring". My personal choice though is I'd rather be associated with boring since i have yet to meet someone IRL who owns a Scion that I've actually liked.
The thing is though, all the great Toyotas of the past were Toyotas: the Supra, the AE86, the Celica, the 2000GT, etc. There hasn't been a single Scion that was truly great (or even marginally so), and Toyota is having to reinvent itself and create an entirely new reputation for itself by selling the FR-S under the lackluster Scion brand. I would think that if they sold it as a Toyota and featured some of those old and great Toyotas in their advertising that the car would be a natural fit for the Toyota brand. I don't see a reason for the Scion brand to exist at all.
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:47 PM   #90
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The thing is though, all the great Toyotas of the past were Toyotas: the Supra, the AE86, the Celica, the 2000GT, etc. There hasn't been a single Scion that was truly great (or even marginally so), and Toyota is having to reinvent itself and create an entirely new reputation for itself by selling the FR-S under the lackluster Scion brand. I would think that if they sold it as a Toyota and featured some of those old and great Toyotas in their advertising that the car would be a natural fit for the Toyota brand. I don't see a reason for the Scion brand to exist at all.
Looking at it, I've wondered the same thing.

Though technically Toyota has found a fit for it, in the Scion lineup as far as sales go. Granted it would have probably sold just as well as a Toyota, what conflicts that may have caused is beyond me. And as far as advertising, in regards to car shows and demonstrations they have in fact included the car's "heritage."

The only real difference is a demographic, which in this particular part of the U.S. (SE) you don't even really notice...as people drive cars, meaning at some point or another you're going to see someone of some age driving a scion. Though in other parts it's quite the stigma, as noted by insurance prices and impression of the brand itself...but brands change over time as we've all seen.

Rather than letting a brand die, they chose to reinvigorate it with a sports car, which currently leaned more towards the current scion than toyota (first thing you think of is a Camry or surprisingly enough a tundra). There's nothing super sporty about either brand currently (I don't really count the Tc), but a choice was made. Besides, Toyota already has a pretty lengthy list of cars in the lineup.

Toyota sells volume in the form of corollas, avalons, you name it. They're going to use that. Scion is more of a plaything to begin with, so they're toying with the sports car idea using that brand. I don't see it as a terrible idea, why mess with a good thing when if you put something people are going to want somewhere, they will in fact find it and buy it.

Who knows, maybe after a while Toyota will bring over the high spec GT version as a Toyota rather than a Scion;Though I would worry the difference in price would be semi-steep ($5k-ish minimum), which would then set the tone between the brands for that car. But as it has been mentioned before, that's doubtful.

--------------
Anyway, to be on topic. I may very well swap the badges, hell even if I got the Subaru I might do it. Just depends on what I felt I wanted. It's my car anyway, and it's simply an aesthetic...like many other mods.
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Old 05-07-2012, 07:00 PM   #91
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Quote:
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I would think that if they sold it as a Toyota and featured some of those old and great Toyotas in their advertising that the car would be a natural fit for the Toyota brand. I don't see a reason for the Scion brand to exist at all.
The problem with marketing it as a Toyota in that regard is that only the enthusiast will remember any of those cars so it's kind of hard to market outside of that narrow demographic (and they've already taken this route by emphasizing the car's heritage where people who follow the car actually see it). Sadly, most people consider history boring, so it's not a very good marketing ploy for the masses.
They also still have to support the rest of the brand's lineup and at this point they really can't just drop it. The xb and xd may be gone but they still have to support the tC as well as the new iQ. They can't just have 1 or 2 cars for a lineup.

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The only real difference is a demographic, which in this particular part of the U.S. (SE) you don't even really notice...as people drive cars, meaning at some point or another you're going to see someone of some age driving a scion. Though in other parts it's quite the stigma, as noted by insurance prices and impression of the brand itself...but brands change over time as we've all seen.
That's what I'm hoping will happen is that Scion will be taken more seriously like Lexus is. Even if this happens though it's still going to have that stigma of 'boy racer' and 'teeny bopper'.

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Who knows, maybe after a while Toyota will bring over the high spec GT version as a Toyota rather than a Scion;Though I would worry the difference in price would be semi-steep ($5k-ish minimum), which would then set the tone between the brands for that car. But as it has been mentioned before, that's doubtful.
I highly doubt they are ever going to bring the higher trim here to the states in the form of a Toyota unless they kill off the Scion brand entirely (which, again i highly doubt as i project the FR-S will be very good for sales, and as we know Scion doesn't do trim levels). It goes against the image grain they have propped up with the Toyota brand and it would break the illusion of "the brand" (some really thick people still think each automotive brand is it's own company... "what do you mean Dodge and Chrysler are the same?" ). I currently live in a really backwater part of the state where people at work still tell me "buying foreign cars is hurtin our economy!!"
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Old 05-07-2012, 07:31 PM   #92
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The problem with marketing it as a Toyota in that regard is that only the enthusiast will remember any of those cars so it's kind of hard to market outside of that narrow demographic (and they've already taken this route by emphasizing the car's heritage where people who follow the car actually see it). Sadly, most people consider history boring, so it's not a very good marketing ploy for the masses.
They also still have to support the rest of the brand's lineup and at this point they really can't just drop it. The xb and xd may be gone but they still have to support the tC as well as the new iQ. They can't just have 1 or 2 cars for a lineup.



That's what I'm hoping will happen is that Scion will be taken more seriously like Lexus is. Even if this happens though it's still going to have that stigma of 'boy racer' and 'teeny bopper'.



I highly doubt they are ever going to bring the higher trim here to the states in the form of a Toyota unless they kill off the Scion brand entirely (which, again i highly doubt as i project the FR-S will be very good for sales, and as we know Scion doesn't do trim levels). It goes against the image grain they have propped up with the Toyota brand and it would break the illusion of "the brand" (some really thick people still think each automotive brand is it's own company... "what do you mean Dodge and Chrysler are the same?" ). I currently live in a really backwater part of the state where people at work still tell me "buying foreign cars is hurtin our economy!!"
You make good points but you also reminded me of one of the big reasons I don't like Scion: choice, or rather, the lack thereof.

Scion makes a big deal about mono-spec pricing, a lack of trim levels, and having everything be an accessory. The thing is though, choice is good for the consumer. It is true that it's not to the consumer's benefit to be forced to buy option packages to get individual features, but Scion makes it seem like you can get those individual features separately when that's plainly not the case. With other brands, lesser features like fog lights and a spoiler are often available as individual options, but if you do in fact want leather seats and climate control, you have the choice to choose an option package that includes those features.

Assuming you could even get the individual constituent features of the packages separately, you usually end up paying more than you do if you bundle features together in those packages, even if you end up with features you don't necessarily want. However, in Scion's case, you can't get climate control, you can't get keyless entry and start, and you can't get leather and alcantara seats, HID headlamps, heated seats and mirrors, navigation, all features that a prospective buyer may be interested in. The FR-S is unique in that you can go to the Subaru brand if you want those features, but you're still left with slightly different styling, a different dealer network, and a different pricing model, all things that may be unappealing to Scion's target demographic and even those who don't fit the mold.

What many dealers will do to try to fill the gap is to offer dealer-installed add -ons, like aftermarket leather and heated seats, but these add-ons are often marked-up substantially from their market value. Additionally, it will be hard to value these add-ons when it comes time to resell the car; they either won't add much to the car's value or they'll add nothing at all having been "aftermarket" additions.

Speaking of which, this leads me to my second major gripe about Scion's pricing/accessories model: accessories are often not taken into consideration when valuing the car through tools such as the Kelly Blue Book, devaluing accessorized cars. Things like BeSpoke audio which can add a large amount to the vehicle's overall price, will not be included when tallying-up a car's features, and will therefore not be straightforward to appraise. When it comes time for a Scion owner to trade-up, those accessories will have done very little to boost his car's market price in the eyes of most buyers, both private persons and dealers alike.
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Old 05-07-2012, 08:30 PM   #93
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Well i never did say that i necessarily liked how Scion does their pricing and accessory/trims. In fact i hate it because again it's all about trying to rope in younger buyers with simplicity (which i despise). It was designed with my generation in mind that spends more time thinking about ipods than automobiles. There are very good reasons why nobody else does it this way, many of the reasons you pointed out.

The only upside to their 'Pure Pricing' policy is that it is beneficial for popular new models like the FR-S because it means the dealer can't mark up the price beyond MSRP. Toyota/Scion dealers would have done the same thing Subaru is doing right now if they could get away with it but you pay for this 'feature' down the road when the car becomes less popular and any bargaining chips/hopes of invoice pricing you had go out the window (because it works both ways).

Thankfully I'm the kind of guy who actually prefers the lower trim levels however so the Scion actually fits me better in this regard as well (hell, I'd rather have manual windows/door locks if they actually offered it, I'm weird like that) and until/if Subaru ever gets more of a surplus of cars the FR-S is the only sane choice.

I think we might be getting off topic though...
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:59 PM   #94
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-JAPAN...sories&vxp=mtr

heres the gt 86 badge, showing because it shows how the back side is made, got 2 pins that secure it on :P dunno if the scion ver will be different
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:49 AM   #95
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At the end of the day, you drive a Scion, because that's how they sold these cars in this country. You can change badges all day long, you're not fooling anyone. Have fun looking yourselves in the mirror and sleeping well at night. gg
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:17 AM   #96
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At the end of the day, you drive a Scion, because that's how they sold these cars in this country. You can change badges all day long, you're not fooling anyone. Have fun looking yourselves in the mirror and sleeping well at night. gg
Out of curiosity, did you import that 95 Silvia you have in your sig? Like a real-deal OG Japanese RHD Silvia... because they never made that car here. If not, you calling your Nissan 240SX a Silvia is the same thing.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:23 AM   #97
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Out of curiosity, did you import that 95 Silvia you have in your sig? Like a real-deal OG Japanese RHD Silvia... because they never made that car here. If not, you calling your Nissan 240SX a Silvia is the same thing.
A real one when I lived on Yokota AB Japan.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:29 AM   #98
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A real one when I lived on Yokota AB Japan.
Well done :happy0180:

Still don't see why you want to troll those looking to re-badge.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:38 AM   #99
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At the end of the day, you drive a Scion, because that's how they sold these cars in this country. You can change badges all day long, you're not fooling anyone. Have fun looking yourselves in the mirror and sleeping well at night. gg
I disagree you will probably fool a lot of people, just not ones who know a lot about the car. Even those who do know a lot about it will at least catch their attention.

I know the first time I see one re-badged I'll take notice.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:50 AM   #100
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Am I really the only one here who doesn't look at this car differently as a Scion / Subaru / 86?

The only real difference is the interior, the suspension tuning, and the price you pay. Which is moot depending on changes made to the car.

Calling anyone out for rebadging or other cosmetic changes might as well be you trying to justify your purchase or assert yourself.

At the end of the day, you drive your car. Make it what you will.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:29 AM   #101
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At the end of the day, you drive a Scion, because that's how they sold these cars in this country. You can change badges all day long, you're not fooling anyone. Have fun looking yourselves in the mirror and sleeping well at night. gg
i was just posting the badge so people can see the prongs, i doubt anyone has scion badges on ebay... lol
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:24 AM   #102
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A brand is supposed to mean a lot more than just the products it sells. I am faithful to the Toyota brand, not the Scion brand. Scion and Toyota have very different meanings to me.

“A brand is a person’s gut feeling about a product, service, or company.” - Marty Neumier, The Brand Gap

It's the same thing as if it were to be badged a Lexus. Would people think differently if this were the Lexus FR-S? Yes, they would, because the Lexus brand has certain pretenses. Regardless of whether or not it's the same car, people think differently about it. Of course a Lexus RX350 is just a Toyota highlander with some gussied up features. But thousands of people buy it thinking they're getting some fantastic luxury car! Why is that? Because of Lexus' brand image.

Like Lexus being associated with Luxury, Toyota is (to most) associated with dependable, reliable cars and (to some like me) excellent motorsports heritage. Scion has associated themselves with being hip, fresh, and new, or at least that's what the aging marketing reps are trying to make the brand appear to be.

In the end, it's all about who you want to be associated with. Do I want to be associated with those who enjoy classic sporty cars like the Supra, MR2, Celica, even Starlet and Corolla, or do I want to be associated with the guy driving the xB or xD? My best friend's 60-yr-old mother drives a bright blue body-kitted xB. She is not hip. She is not fresh, or cool. She bought it because it's spacious and cheap.

Since I don't have the choice to get a Toyota, I'll take a Subaru, thanks. If the Scion brand image doesn't bother you, then great! Maybe this car will help change that brand image, because right now I think it's pretty lame.
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