Toronto test drive impressions

[Marloon]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Cons:

• not quite as light or lively feeling as a MX-5 at slower speeds (probably will be much better in this regard on highway)
• steering feel not quite up to a 70's Porsche - has a more damped feel
• bad blind spots, even over-the shoulder looks will not be enough - use mirrors!
  
• hood level and bottom of windshield quite high relative to older sporty cars like Prelude, Integra, 1st gen Tiburon - a slight feeling you are being swallowed/cocooned in car, visibility not as good. Raising the seat to fully compensate cuts off forward upward vision too much.
  
• shifter more notchy than an MX-5, a little too notchy IMO, but I can imagine it would be easy to get used to
• front hood line has a black rubber gasket that peers through, makes the line too distinct - why did they not put the lid edge further forward at the lights?

I totally agree with this point. I really wanted the old sports car feel again with the low dash, low steering wheel, with GREAT visibility that is cognizant with the older 90' sports cars like the NA/NB Miatas, 1990, 1996 Integra.

Unfortunately, I was sitting in the lowest position possible and still felt cocooned/wrapped in the car. Nevertheless, the car is truly awesome for 2012.

[veewonwon]

I was part of this morning test drive, and would like to put in my $0.02.

First off, thanks to the folks in the GB, Kenny Shaw and Mark (Scion), this has been a relatively relax and enjoyable experience. And a chance to meet all the pretty faces from this forum.

Back to the test, it was a beautiful 18C sunny morning, the location is in the city where roads are mainly consists of uneven, but not broken, pavements, no accessible freeway nearby, Sat morning traffic was relatively frequent. Payload was about 230kg (500lb), i.e. me and two passengers, quarter tanked gas. The test was about a 10 mins short run, 1st gear to about 6.5k, 2nd around 5k, 3rd was the top gear driven before getting myself in trouble.

Though the car appeared small, it is very comfortable in the supportive front seats, outward vision is excellent. Stock ground clearance is quite low, the wheel gaps appeared smaller than most of the pics posted. If I'd to lower it, it'll be about 1-1.5cm, but I don't think I'll do it anytime soon, may be never.

Trunk didn't look smaller than my G37s, and the back seats had more headroom, less for the legs though. After properly adjusted the seating position and mirrors, it felt less claustrophobic than the Lexus IS, yet everything is within reach nicely. Looking through the windshield, the two front fender bulges gave a well defined look, they reminded me of a Elise's front view.

Upon starting the engine, the idle is fairly quiet, but not use to the buzz from a boxer-4: though it rev'd smoothly and no shakes, the sound is rough. Also, there's more of the engine sound than the exhaust. While exhaust sounded like any ordinary coupe, the G37s has significant more weight and throaty sound. May be a cat back system down the road, will see.

Being the first test driver, I'd to back the car out with folks nearby, there was untrammeled view looking through the driver side window. It immediately struck me that it was better than all my last few DDs, namely the E46, G35, RX-8 and G37s. Surprisingly, even the direct rearward view was better than all the honorable mentioned. No one was hurt

The drive-off impression was: lightness, roll easy and smooth. Clutch take up was quick and smooth, more noticeable on a standing start with grade, beat all European's and my DD. The acceleration felt more like the RX-8, smooth and mild mannered, and is fast enough to beat most cars on the road. It doesn't feel as "macho" as the Mustangs, Cameros, Z370. Still not use to the boxer-4 buzz.

Turns were flat, virtually no dive and squat during spirited starts-stops. What I like the most was the well tuned compliant suspension, it suits the uneven city streets really well. Much like the smooth ride of RX-8. But that boxer-4 buzz ...

For the nitpicks: Subaru style MT shifter sucks, it sits too tall for no apparent functional reasoning. Will definitely try out the mentioned SS kit with a shorter stick when it becomes available. What else, hmm... cheap looking HVAC dials, I wanted a rear hatch .... sunroof which I may use in winter, butt unfriendly leather seats, annoying push start button, no subs to shake the ground, and how can I forget the boxer-4 buzz...oh well, whatever.

I still can't get over the fact that this initial test drive impression was very good indeed. Ever since I let go with the Supra Turbo (13.5 yrs, 300k kms), I switched to leasing only mode as all the honorable mentioned was not worth keeping longer than a few years. I'll see if this Toyota will stay with me for another 10+ yr - so this one will be a purchased, not leased.

Other than many pros already mentioned and agreed, my experience on this brief test drive event differs from Scion-FRS' cons as follows:
1. compare to many small hardtop sport coupes, like the FC and RX-8, this car feel as light, nimble and direct. The test drive conditions was unable to test for liveliness
2. steering feel is light, but feedback is as good as many late model coupes, RX-8 and Cayman still lead. At this point, I kind of prefer the lightness in the FR-S, it permits quick action without the fight, time will tell. Btw, the 70s 911s were not power assisted, my faint memory hinted that PS was added from the 964 onwards, which is the 90s.
3. see #26 above
4. the hood line is as low as I can bear, as further lowering will not contribute to better forward vision. The old Honda coupe's hood line was way too low to me (I've driven many Hondas, if not all), felt like sitting in a fish tank. Sorry I was not a Honda fan though I like the DC2-R drive feel, imho, the best fwd sports.
5. the MT shifts smoothly, there was no notchy feel at all. Yes, the MX5 + RX8 have shorter throws and more precise feel.

Thanks for reading this long post. Back to lurk mode.

[veewonwon]

Originally Posted by Dr.Science

I don't know about other cars, but that's typical of high performance Subaru's. My old WRX had the tach in the center, and so do STI's. The digital speedo is a nice addition, though.

Mazda RX-8 has no analog speedo, similar to the FR-S, a large center tech with digital speedo only.

http://l.yimg.com/dv/izp/mazda_rx_8_...entcluster.jpg

[Sport-Tech]

Thanks for the writeup veewonwon, I really enjoyed reading your perspectives - certainly broadened my own. Probably 3/4 of the differences in view we took from the drives is a result of our different prior experiences, mine being far more limited than yours (other than the Tiburon, a week with an Integra GS, and one parent's current-gen Corolla XR-S, just memories of Porsche, GTO, Fiat 124, 300ZX from my teens, plus a few more recent test drives). Very interesting to see how the FR-S compared to your past vehicles.

On your specific comments: I too found the wheel gap quite reasonable IRL, would not see a need to change it. Personally, I much prefer fish tank views to bunker-slit views (although I would not say the FR-S goes to the latter extreme) - it's one thing I have always liked about Hondas. Also, while the shifter may be no notchier than other RWD coupes, if you are coming from a FWD manual as I am, the tranny is going to feel notchy for sure.

the location is in the city where roads are mainly consists of uneven, but not broken, pavements,

Three years ago that portion of St. Clair the dealership is on looked like it was flown in from Afghanistan, it was so bombed out. And Jane St. was just as bad, it's all been repaved.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

A Whiteout MT was made available at Ken Shaw for a quick test drive this morning for those who pre-ordered. Drives were basically glorified around-the-block excursions lasting 7-8 minutes but were enough to get some initial impressions. As I live fairly near the dealership I was able to drive roads I know well and assess how the FR-S handled and rode them in comparison to my 1st-gen Tiburon. My first thoughts:

Pros:

• solid solid solid. Car feels like it has been carved out of a big block of
  granite, vault-like rigidity and incredibly well planted.
• Whiteout is an absolute knockout on this car.
• steering weight seems just right, as does steering ratio
• turn-in is immediate and responsive, no nose-heavy ploughing
• brakes were simply outstanding on panic stop test - feel, smoothness, control
• clutch has just the right weight, quick take-up
• no lag in throttle response, and no throttle hanging
• power is solid throughout the torque range in my view, no noticeable hole, certainly more than enough there to get you in serious trouble with the law very, very quickly.
• engine note surprisingly quiet at idle, pleasant and not too intrusive at low /part throttle, really livens up at higher rpm, sounds strong even though the tone does not have the nth degree of refinement - Porsche still wins here. But definitely not blatty or ricey.
• perfect size for its mission
• great driving ergonomics for all controls; seat wonderfully body hugging (5'11", 150 lbs)
• tail can cut loose a little bit even with full TC/VSC on
• fabulous balance between handling and suspension compliance requirements, rides smoother than the current Corolla XR-S over irregularities. An Integra GS is a kidney masher by comparison.

Cons:

• not quite as light or lively feeling as a MX-5 at slower speeds (probably will be much better in this regard on highway)
• steering feel not quite up to a 70's Porsche - has a more damped feel
• bad blind spots, even over-the shoulder looks will not be enough - use mirrors!
• hood level and bottom of windshield quite high relative to older sporty cars like Prelude, Integra, 1st gen Tiburon - a slight feeling you are being swallowed/cocooned in car, visibility not as good. Raising the seat to fully compensate cuts off forward upward vision too much.
• shifter more notchy than an MX-5, a little too notchy IMO, but I can imagine it would be easy to get used to
• front hood line has a black rubber gasket that peers through, makes the line too distinct - why did they not put the lid edge further forward at the lights?

steering feel is going to be better than any other electronic steering you use today... LFA is better but the tech came form there, many have said the electric steering is better than Porsche and thats a lot to say.... i still have yet to take the car on an auto x track...

[Sleeperz]

Is the steering is electric power steering?
If the steering feels damp, Most likely, nothing will ever beat a manual rack and pinion steering since the steering control is directly from your hands to the tires. Unless someone develops an advanced control steering system using feedforward predictive algorithms to predict the steering before you even move the steering wheel.

Originally Posted by My first thoughts:
Pros:[LIST

[*]steering weight seems just right, as does steering ratio[*]turn-in is immediate and responsive, no nose-heavy ploughing [*]brakes were simply outstanding on panic stop test - feel, smoothness, control



Cons:
[*]steering feel not quite up to a 70's Porsche - has a more damped feel[*]bad blind spots, even over-the shoulder looks will not be enough - use mirrors!
[*]shifter more notchy than an MX-5, a little too notchy IMO, but I can imagine it would be easy to get used to[*]front hood line has a black rubber gasket that peers through, makes the line too distinct - why did they not put the lid edge further forward at the lights?[/LIST]

[pastuch]

Originally Posted by veewonwon

I was part of this morning test drive, and would like to put in my $0.02.

First off, thanks to the folks in the GB, Kenny Shaw and Mark (Scion), this has been a relatively relax and enjoyable experience. And a chance to meet all the pretty faces from this forum.

Back to the test, it was a beautiful 18C sunny morning, the location is in the city where roads are mainly consists of uneven, but not broken, pavements, no accessible freeway nearby, Sat morning traffic was relatively frequent. Payload was about 230kg (500lb), i.e. me and two passengers, quarter tanked gas. The test was about a 10 mins short run, 1st gear to about 6.5k, 2nd around 5k, 3rd was the top gear driven before getting myself in trouble.

Though the car appeared small, it is very comfortable in the supportive front seats, outward vision is excellent. Stock ground clearance is quite low, the wheel gaps appeared smaller than most of the pics posted. If I'd to lower it, it'll be about 1-1.5cm, but I don't think I'll do it anytime soon, may be never.

Trunk didn't look smaller than my G37s, and the back seats had more headroom, less for the legs though. After properly adjusted the seating position and mirrors, it felt less claustrophobic than the Lexus IS, yet everything is within reach nicely. Looking through the windshield, the two front fender bulges gave a well defined look, they reminded me of a Elise's front view.

Upon starting the engine, the idle is fairly quiet, but not use to the buzz from a boxer-4: though it rev'd smoothly and no shakes, the sound is rough. Also, there's more of the engine sound than the exhaust. While exhaust sounded like any ordinary coupe, the G37s has significant more weight and throaty sound. May be a cat back system down the road, will see.

Being the first test driver, I'd to back the car out with folks nearby, there was untrammeled view looking through the driver side window. It immediately struck me that it was better than all my last few DDs, namely the E46, G35, RX-8 and G37s. Surprisingly, even the direct rearward view was better than all the honorable mentioned. No one was hurt

The drive-off impression was: lightness, roll easy and smooth. Clutch take up was quick and smooth, more noticeable on a standing start with grade, beat all European's and my DD. The acceleration felt more like the RX-8, smooth and mild mannered, and is fast enough to beat most cars on the road. It doesn't feel as "macho" as the Mustangs, Cameros, Z370. Still not use to the boxer-4 buzz.

Turns were flat, virtually no dive and squat during spirited starts-stops. What I like the most was the well tuned compliant suspension, it suits the uneven city streets really well. Much like the smooth ride of RX-8. But that boxer-4 buzz ...

For the nitpicks: Subaru style MT shifter sucks, it sits too tall for no apparent functional reasoning. Will definitely try out the mentioned SS kit with a shorter stick when it becomes available. What else, hmm... cheap looking HVAC dials, I wanted a rear hatch .... sunroof which I may use in winter, butt unfriendly leather seats, annoying push start button, no subs to shake the ground, and how can I forget the boxer-4 buzz...oh well, whatever.

I still can't get over the fact that this initial test drive impression was very good indeed. Ever since I let go with the Supra Turbo (13.5 yrs, 300k kms), I switched to leasing only mode as all the honorable mentioned was not worth keeping longer than a few years. I'll see if this Toyota will stay with me for another 10+ yr - so this one will be a purchased, not leased.

Other than many pros already mentioned and agreed, my experience on this brief test drive event differs from Scion-FRS' cons as follows:
1. compare to many small hardtop sport coupes, like the FC and RX-8, this car feel as light, nimble and direct. The test drive conditions was unable to test for liveliness
2. steering feel is light, but feedback is as good as many late model coupes, RX-8 and Cayman still lead. At this point, I kind of prefer the lightness in the FR-S, it permits quick action without the fight, time will tell. Btw, the 70s 911s were not power assisted, my faint memory hinted that PS was added from the 964 onwards, which is the 90s.
3. see #26 above
4. the hood line is as low as I can bear, as further lowering will not contribute to better forward vision. The old Honda coupe's hood line was way too low to me (I've driven many Hondas, if not all), felt like sitting in a fish tank. Sorry I was not a Honda fan though I like the DC2-R drive feel, imho, the best fwd sports.
5. the MT shifts smoothly, there was no notchy feel at all. Yes, the MX5 + RX8 have shorter throws and more precise feel.

Thanks for reading this long post. Back to lurk mode.

Having driven and/or owned most of the same vehicles you have I can't wait to compare notes.

Are you comparing the transmission from an NB miata or NA to the FRS?

[nathanR]

@Scion FR-S and @veewonwon

Thanks a bunch for the reviews. You two addressed a couple of my largest concerns with this car: visibility and drive-view. My most recent vehicle experiences include a MY04 STi, MazdaSpeed Protege, NX2000, and MazdaSpeed 3; all of which have decent to excellent visibility and I've never had to soley rely on the mirrors. If I elect to purchase this car, I'm going to have to get accustomed to using them.

Also, my personal preference is to be able to see the top of the hood when in a normal driving position. I'm around 5'10" and can't wait to sit in the car to see what kind of view I get.

[veewonwon]

Originally Posted by pastuch

Having driven and/or owned most of the same vehicles you have I can't wait to compare notes.

Are you comparing the transmission from an NB miata or NA to the FRS?

NC, specifically MY07.

[veewonwon]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

steering feel is going to be better than any other electronic steering you use today... LFA is better but the tech came form there, many have said the electric steering is better than Porsche and thats a lot to say.... i still have yet to take the car on an auto x track...

Ditto.

I'd RX-8 & Yaris RS hatch as DDs before, they both use EPS that felt direct, quick, and responsive. I was very impressed and looking forward to have EPS on the FR-S.

One advantage of the EPS system on those cars was - assisted steering is available even when the engine is not running, this is great for rolling the car without starting the engine, e.g. get it out the garage to get washed.

With the brief test drive, I didn't get any bad feeling about the FR-S version, not something I worry the least bit at this point.

No experience on the Porsche and LFA versions, so no comment on them.

[veewonwon]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Thanks for the writeup veewonwon, I really enjoyed reading your perspectives - certainly broadened my own.

I normally lurk on forums, due to busy work schedules. However, thanks to the folks here, and of course Scion Canada + Kenny, I felt it only be fair that I share my thoughts here.

Probably 3/4 of the differences in view we took from the drives is a result of our different prior experiences, mine being far more limited than yours ... Very interesting to see how the FR-S compared to your past vehicles.

Even someone had driven similar vehicles may have different opinions, it is more important that we value and respect the in-differences.

To me, my passion on driving is how to improve my own skill and make the best out of any vehicle. I've very busy work schedules, driving behind the wheel is one way of taking my focus away from work, hence, I'm a very focus driver.

Personally, I much prefer fish tank views to bunker-slit views (although I would not say the FR-S goes to the latter extreme) - it's one thing I have always liked about Hondas.

Certainly, that's why Honda was very popular amongst its supporters.

Just a tidbit about the low hoodline (and windowsill) design - Honda can sell more cars to those that were unable to see out properly due to physical limitations. This is not an issue in the western world, but very apparent in Asia. Have you ever experienced catching up to a ghost vehicle in front - one you couldn't see the driver from behind?

The bunker-slit type? I thought only those who afraid of being shot buy them . Our humble FR-S is just a great tofu delivery machine.

Also, while the shifter may be no notchier than other RWD coupes, if you are coming from a FWD manual as I am, the tranny is going to feel notchy for sure.

Did you experience problem on shifting during the test drive, like hard to get it in 2nd or 3rd gears? B'cos my run was smooth as silk, upshifts were slick, downshifts were rev-matched, heel-n-toe from 3rd to 2nd on a couple of turns, even once from 2nd to 1st.

Three years ago that portion of St. Clair the dealership is on looked like it was flown in from Afghanistan, it was so bombed out. And Jane St. was just as bad, it's all been repaved.

Guess some of our tax money was put to good use.

[Sport-Tech]

Did you experience problem on shifting during the test drive, like hard to get it in 2nd or 3rd gears?

I did find getting into 2nd a bit tricky a few times; I think it's because I was trying to move the shifter too far towards me as I went for that gear though.

[Klinn]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Sorry, forgot to check that. There are nice soft-touch plastics on the upper door and dash, felt very good. Not sure if it extends far enough down the door for knee protection.

Just got to sit in an FR-S for the first time, test drive tomorrow, but I noticed that unfortunately your left knee ends up against a hard plastic trim piece, on the side of the arm rest towards the front of it.

This means that after a long day of autocross runs, your knee is probably going to be sore. I've got this problem in the current summer toy. I think I need to invest in some gardening knee pads.

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by Klinn

Just got to sit in an FR-S for the first time, test drive tomorrow, but I noticed that unfortunately your left knee ends up against a hard plastic trim piece, on the side of the arm rest towards the front of it.

This means that after a long day of autocross runs, your knee is probably going to be sore. I've got this problem in the current summer toy. I think I need to invest in some gardening knee pads.

I was going to suggest a knee pad while reading your post. Get a construction type one from home depot so that your knees will not hurt.