FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[Embarrassed]

Originally Posted by Kamus

The track pack tires are considerably stickier tires than the ones in the BRZ right?

Yes...er no... err...

Yes, to the group of people who have put there cars on the track there is a large difference between the two. On the other hand, 1.5s on that track is not large or even pretty big, it's OMFG huge. Now, if you want to talk about what would happen if you put the stickiest DOT tires on, you'd make it up and then a bit. You would also need a new set of tires with each track event. $$$$. If you put the same compound tires on the Mustang, it would still be ahead - and it would need a new set of tires each event too.

The Z would walk them both.

O

[Ricochet48]

I just had to make my first post in response to some of the misguided comparisons made in this thread.

As some mentioned, both cars in different categories/markets.

The 370z is closer to a muscle car with a v6 engine with twice as much torque, (Look at the 0-60 times, they do not lie) while at the same time maintaining 'sporty' attributes. With the sport package which includes an LSD, 19" Rays, 14" brake calipers, etc., you can put even canyons to shame.

The two main issues users had in this thread revolved around the 'unrefined' engine (especially at higher rpms) and 'weakness' at the track.

At this point, I would like to remind you that you can pick 3 of the following:

1) Performance
2) Price
3) Reliability

For starting at under $30,000 in 2009 (base), the Z is still a great value.

In regards to the first compliant, engine notes and feel are largely subjective. Reviewers have noted the 'coarseness' of the VQ engine though. In my opinion, this falls into the high performance/low cost center. I also feel that this can easily be remedied by a myriad of cat-back exhaust systems (fast intentions, stillen, hks, etc.)

The track comments really got to me. First of all, non-racers should not be comparing race cars. I would venture to say that about 5% of this forum will ever track the car. Therefore, any reference to non-track situations are non-applicable.

Aside from a GT3, almost no cars are truly ready for the track from the factory. If you plan on tracking, brake fluid, lines, and tires are virtually a must on any car.

The Z specifically has oil cooling issues at the track. Nissan didn't put one on until the 2012 version (and it's only a dinky air/water cooler). The rationale behind this was cost, simple as that. If a very small portion of your customer base is going to race on the track, allow them to add it themselves and spare the other buyers. A simple solution for Z owners that want to track: get an oil cooler (there's at least 3 brands making them ATM).

The brakes/tires will be more expensive to maintain than the FRS/BRZ as it's a heavier car. This is just science:

More rubber/rim = more $.
More weight = more wear & tear on brakes = more replacing = more $.

What it really boils down to is preference (as they are totally different as mentioned):

If you have the extra money, want quicker acceleration & low end torque, can live with only 2 seats, want a hatch, etc.--the Z is more suited for you.

If you live and die for handling and don't care that Camrys will beat you in a straight line, need extra seats for emergencies/kids, need to fit 4 track tires, don't want to pay for more track-based maintenance, and can live with just about every HS male in the country drooling over your ride, and can live with about half of those HS males getting their hands on and eventually turning them into 'rice'--the BRZ/FRS may be your ride.

To clarify I'm not trying to bash at all. I love the 86 and have been following since the first concept quite thoroughly. I currently track my RSX-S extensively and have it prepped for the track with standard performance modifications, but more importantly, race pads, brake fluids, SS lines, star specs, volks, sways, & lots of bars. I've been flagged to pass poor drivers in Ferrari's, kept close to NSX's, etc. Tracking is 90% drivers. I've also had Miata's, CRX's, etc. on my tail at the same time. I realize my limits...

I plan to personally wait for an STI version or a TRD supercharger to get some power with a warranty. This would make a happy medium between the Z and the 86 IMO. Basic bolt on's will only yield ~200hp with I/H/E and a tune. If you got more serious and get cams/flywheel you can get a bit more, but nowhere in Z-land. If the 86 was available when I got my RSX-S I would have gotten it HANDS DOWN. But as a 25 year old professional with disposal income that's never felt torque and wants an 'impractical' car until marriage/kids, etc., the Z is more up my ally.

Also on a completely different note. I've only seen about 6 Z's EVER in Chicagoland and on business trips. I also like that there's not going to be a lot of 86's (well, at first). I also feel that as somebody else mentioned, the Z looks exotic (check out the Amuse kit!) while the 86 looks more 'modest,' but still sharp.

Just my $.02. Thanks for listening, opinions very welcomed.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Embarrassed

Yes...er no... err...

Yes, to the group of people who have put there cars on the track there is a large difference between the two. On the other hand, 1.5s on that track is not large or even pretty big, it's OMFG huge. Now, if you want to talk about what would happen if you put the stickiest DOT tires on, you'd make it up and then a bit. You would also need a new set of tires with each track event. $$$$. If you put the same compound tires on the Mustang, it would still be ahead - and it would need a new set of tires each event too.

The Z would walk them both.

O

Exactly. BRZ is ideal only you heavily tune it and track it. Light weight gives a huge advantage for tuning. Stock vs stock, Z wins hands down.

[YukiHachiRoku]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Crap, I thought this was the Mustang thread...

Mustang in the Z thread, RSX in the Mustang thread, and F1 cars in the Focus ST thread.


Heh...

yeah wth, so much derailing...

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dark

Exactly. BRZ is ideal only you heavily tune it and track it. Light weight gives a huge advantage for tuning. Stock vs stock, Z wins hands down.

mod for mod the z would win too. now dollar for dollar...

[Dark]

Originally Posted by fatoni

mod for mod the z would win too. now dollar for dollar...

Tell me more about it.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dark

Tell me more about it.

Because why not. I dont see what would make the brz more responsive to mods

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

Because why not. I dont see what would make the brz more responsive to mods

Well the lower weight helps get more out of power and traction-related gains.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by fatoni

Because why not. I dont see what would make the brz more responsive to mods

2.0L vs 3.7L, 3.7L wins at having potential of making more power with bolt on. What about engine swap and force induction? Not to mention, FR-S/BRZ has back seats to take off.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dark

2.0L vs 3.7L, 3.7L wins at having potential of making more power with bolt on. What about engine swap and force induction? Not to mention, FR-S/BRZ has back seats to take off.

if you really believe that just buy a smart car and have the best car ever. i bet theres room for a better engine in the z than the frs. also room for more tire. im not sure if you are trying to say that back seats are a performance upgrade advantage but that doesnt make any sense

[Dark]

Originally Posted by fatoni

if you really believe that just buy a smart car and have the best car ever. i bet theres room for a better engine in the z than the frs. also room for more tire. im not sure if you are trying to say that back seats are a performance upgrade advantage but that doesnt make any sense

Like? Someone swapped giant IS-F V8 in FR-S.
Backseat: weight reduction? There is more stuff to take out from FR-S than Z. Chassis built from ground up with light weight idea. And I don't see putting 350 tire on either cars can help with performance.
I never say anything about performance upgrade, but modification.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dark

Like? Someone swapped giant IS-F V8 in FR-S.
Backseat: weight reduction? There is more stuff to take out from FR-S than Z. Chassis built from ground up with light weight idea. And I don't see putting 350 tire on either cars can help with performance.
I never say anything about performance upgrade, but modification.

none of that is unique to the frs so i dont see how it has any advantage here

[Dark]

Originally Posted by fatoni

none of that is unique to the frs so i dont see how it has any advantage here

Good luck with cutting down weight on 370Z then.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dark

Good luck with cutting down weight on 370Z then.

if weight is your only concern then why stop at a brz? get a mazda2 and be even faster or dare i say a smart car. that car must be even more ideal once heavily tuned

[Dark]

Originally Posted by fatoni

if weight is your only concern then why stop at a brz? get a mazda2 and be even faster or dare i say a smart car. that car must be even more ideal once heavily tuned

Realistic "Heavily tuned car". Are you really getting a car and spend all money that you would spend on paying for a house on it, just for unstreetable car? What are you going to drive on the road? take bus? Maybe you can afford to spend tons of money on modding a car, but I don't, so I'm talking about a realistic range, 10K-ish mod.
I didn't say weight is everything, I just say, you don't have much luck cutting down weight on 370z. And weight is one advantage BRZ/FR-S has over the Z.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dark

Like? Someone swapped giant IS-F V8 in FR-S.
Backseat: weight reduction? There is more stuff to take out from FR-S than Z. Chassis built from ground up with light weight idea. And I don't see putting 350 tire on either cars can help with performance.
I never say anything about performance upgrade, but modification.

Originally Posted by Dark

Realistic "Heavily tuned car". Are you really getting a car and spend all money that you would spend on paying for a house on it, just for unstreetable car? What are you going to drive on the road? take bus? Maybe you can afford to spend tons of money on modding a car, but I don't, so I'm talking about a realistic range, 10K-ish mod.
I didn't say weight is everything, I just say, you don't have much luck cutting down weight on 370z. And weight is one advantage BRZ/FR-S has over the Z.

good luck doing an isf swap for 10k. im sure for that price you can take more weight off the z than you can add motor to the frs

[ZDan]

For $10k, somebody should be able to double the power of the FR-S/BRZ and be totally streetable. For the same money, could you cut the 370Z's weight in HALF and be even remotely streetable?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ZDan

For $10k, somebody should be able to double the power of the FR-S/BRZ and be totally streetable. For the same money, could you cut the 370Z's weight in HALF and be even remotely streetable?

well you dont have to do that but you could, well probably not but whatever. a lot of weight reductions are free. you could double the hp of the z i guess. the point is that if someone dumped that much into a z it would likely be faster than the frs. i dont know how you would double the power and stay under 10k if you did it with the supporting mods. im not even trying to say this is a fair fight but this is what someone brought up

[Dark]

Originally Posted by fatoni

good luck doing an isf swap for 10k. im sure for that price you can take more weight off the z than you can add motor to the frs

Dude, you was saying that FR-S had no room for big engine. I was just saying someone swapped IS-F motor in. I never say I would swap one in for 10K.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dark

Dude, you was saying that FR-S had no room for big engine. I was just saying someone swapped IS-F motor in. I never say I would swap one in for 10K.

would you mind showing me where i said that

[Dimman]

I think a more accurate statement will be that dollar for dollar the FT86 will see much more significant performance gains than the 370Z.

But the Z will still be faster.

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I think a more accurate statement will be that dollar for dollar the FT86 will see much more significant performance gains than the 370Z.

But the Z will still be faster.

That's certainly debatable. Stock-for-stock, the 370Z is already at a significant advantage, with a power:weight ratio of 9.8:1 (that's quick!), against the FT86's 13.8:1. Getting the FT86's power:weight ratio to eclipse that of the 370Z for the same or less money could be pretty tough.

However, it can certainly be argued that it would be cheaper to run an FT86 than a 370Z on the track because it's lower weight, skinnier tires, smaller brakes, less fluids, etc. Your consumables cost would be significantly less, and in addition to them being smaller, the FT86 would probably wear tires and brakes slower because it is a lighter car; i.e. less mass to throw around and slow down. It also returns better fuel economy, so you'd burn less gas after your lapping session, too.