Automobile mag first test of FR-S

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Again, not saying it needs, just that I wouldn't mind having more.

And Subaru already has 7K redline 2.5L boxers, so I think it's reasonable. I just think they chose 2.0L for emissions and tax reasons (I believe some countries tax by CO2 output and others by displacement).

Where? Which one? Which engine? Did I miss it?

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Where? Which one? Which engine? Did I miss it?

Every US 2.5L STI has a 7K redline. EJ257 I believe.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Every US 2.5L STI has a 7K redline. EJ257 I believe.

You're thinking 2L ver STI. US 2.5L STI gauge looks like this

[bimmerboy]

@ichitaka05- Incorrect:

2004-2007 USDM STi's w/ EJ257 had 7k redlines stock:


Similarly, 2004-2007 JDM STi's with the EJ207 had 8k redlines stock:

[Draco-REX]

Ahh, didn't realize they lowered the redline after 07. I have an 07 STI and it definitely hits 7K.
EDIT: My personal STI.

MadDad Ultra Boost Gauge - YouTube

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

Incorrect:

2004-2007 STi's w/ EJ257 had 7k redlines stock:

Thanks for the correction. But this proves more of my point. Getting more hp/tq = loosing more redline. Specially it's a same engine & to get extra 5hp lost 400rpm... yeah not for me

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Ahh, didn't realize they lowered the redline after 07. I have an 07 STI and it definitely hits 7K.
EDIT: My personal STI.
MadDad Ultra Boost Gauge - YouTube

Yeah, I thought they had same redline as well as new STI, but o'well

[bimmerboy]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Thanks for the correction. But this proves more of my point. Getting more hp/tq = loosing more redline. Specially it's a same engine & to get extra 5hp lost 400rpm... yeah not for me

??? Care to explain. Please don't compare the EJ257 to the FA20, two totally different engines, N/A vs Turbo...

Also the change in hp ratings from the 04-07 to 08+ STi engines were due to new SAE standards. The lower redline is easily removed via a tune in the 08+ STi, however if you know STi engines w/ factory turbo, you know its almost pointless spinning up to 7k rpm anyways.

I think Draco-REX is saying that a 2.5 N/A motor with 7k redline would be more favorable due to increased tq output, even if they kept the same hp targets of around 200hp.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

??? Care to explain. Please don't compare the EJ257 to the FA20, two totally different engines, N/A vs Turbo...

Also the change in hp ratings from the 04-07 to 08+ STi engines were due to new SAE standards. The lower redline is easily removed via a tune in the 08+ STi, however if you know STi engines w/ factory turbo, you know its almost pointless spinning up to 7k rpm anyways.

I think Draco-REX is saying that a 2.5 N/A motor with 7k redline would be more favorable due to increased tq output, even if they kept the same hp targets of around 200hp.

To be fair, I was the one that started the comparison.

Essentially, since the peak torque is below 7K and peak HP is pretty much at 7K in the FA20, I don't believe adding .5L to the displacement would hurt anything *if* it cost 400rpm.

We're in the realm of the theoretical, anything is speculation at this point. I even wouldn't be surprised if the "STI" version ends up n/a 2.5L. But we'll see. No one's even cracked the ECU yet, so we don't know if there's any potential left in the FA20. There are a lot of rumors.....

[Spaceywilly]

You don't have to compare it to the FA20, you can also compare it to the EJ207 they have in the JDM STI. I would rather have the JDM 2.0L STI engine with 8500RPM redline than the 2.5L USDM one with a 7000RPM redline. And in the same vain, I would rather have the STI version of the BRZ keep the FA20 and increase the redline to 8500 than go with a 2.5L FA25 and lower the redline. Guess it all comes down to personal preferenece but I'm glad they kept the engine 2.0L and high revving.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

To be fair, I was the one that started the comparison.

Essentially, since the peak torque is below 7K and peak HP is pretty much at 7K in the FA20, I don't believe adding .5L to the displacement would hurt anything *if* it cost 400rpm.

We're in the realm of the theoretical, anything is speculation at this point. I even wouldn't be surprised if the "STI" version ends up n/a 2.5L. But we'll see. No one's even cracked the ECU yet, so we don't know if there's any potential left in the FA20. There are a lot of rumors.....

Here's a news for you guys want open ECU. Currently Tada-san is changing the policy of Toyota co to make it open ECU, so it'll be easier to open & mapping it... so only time will tell

[bimmerboy]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

To be fair, I was the one that started the comparison.

Essentially, since the peak torque is below 7K and peak HP is pretty much at 7K in the FA20, I don't believe adding .5L to the displacement would hurt anything *if* it cost 400rpm.

We're in the realm of the theoretical, anything is speculation at this point. I even wouldn't be surprised if the "STI" version ends up n/a 2.5L. But we'll see. No one's even cracked the ECU yet, so we don't know if there's any potential left in the FA20. There are a lot of rumors.....

Agreed-It really is too early to speculate on the STI engine. If the FA20 is a 8500rpm monster de-tuned for base BRZ/GT-86/FR-S duties, then I could see toyota/subaru going with the high-output version of the same engine to save $$$..

On the other hand, seems like there is a ton of customer demand for some sort of forced induction. Seeing as subaru has confirmed that the next gen WRX will have a turbocharged version of the FA20, it would also make sense for subaru to dump this engine in the "STI" version of the BRZ...

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

You don't have to compare it to the FA20, you can also compare it to the EJ207 they have in the JDM STI. I would rather have the JDM 2.0L STI engine with 8500RPM redline than the 2.5L USDM one with a 7000RPM redline. And in the same vain, I would rather have the STI version of the BRZ keep the FA20 and increase the redline to 8500 than go with a 2.5L FA25 and lower the redline. Guess it all comes down to personal preferenece but I'm glad they kept the engine 2.0L and high revving.

Yes- all comes down to personal preference...

[bimmerboy]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Here's a news for you guys want open ECU. Currently Tada-san is changing the policy of Toyota co to make it open ECU, so it'll be easier to open & mapping it... so only time will tell

Awesome... 1st thing people will try to eliminate is that dip in the torque-curve I bet.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by bimmerboy

Awesome... 1st thing people will try to eliminate is that dip in the torque-curve I bet.

That won't be in my mods list. First thing mod I'll be doing will be oil catch tank. If you gonna track it, autox'ing it, driftin' it, or any high lateral G is happening, I would recommend oil catch tank.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Wow, this guy is saying exactly what I've been saying. If the engine just made another 30 lb-ft of torque, it would be satisfying enough for all conditions.

the engine actually doesnt make 151 lb-ft its more around 169lb-ft so really the FA 20 is lacking 11lb-ft off the Porsche engine and its .5L smaller

143 wheel lb-ft ~ 169 crank lb-ft

[Draco-REX]

I do want the engine logged. Rumors abound and some are interesting in the extreme. One being that the FA20 is detuned from peak performance to meet emissions and durability standards. Another that I've heard is that the reason the torque curve nosedives at the end is because the throttle plate closes. It's even possible that the two are interrelated. We shall see.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

I do want the engine logged. Rumors abound and some are interesting in the extreme. One being that the FA20 is detuned from peak performance to meet emissions and durability standards. Another that I've heard is that the reason the torque curve nosedives at the end is because the throttle plate closes. It's even possible that the two are interrelated. We shall see.

Where did this rumour come from?

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

You don't have to compare it to the FA20, you can also compare it to the EJ207 they have in the JDM STI. I would rather have the JDM 2.0L STI engine with 8500RPM redline than the 2.5L USDM one with a 7000RPM redline. And in the same vain, I would rather have the STI version of the BRZ keep the FA20 and increase the redline to 8500 than go with a 2.5L FA25 and lower the redline. Guess it all comes down to personal preferenece but I'm glad they kept the engine 2.0L and high revving.

Doesn't the JDM EJ207 come with a twin-scroll? Heck yeah I'd bet most people would pick that over the USDM EJ257

[JohnnyR]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Wow, this guy is saying exactly what I've been saying. If the engine just made another 30 lb-ft of torque, it would be satisfying enough for all conditions.

FI would have fixed that no problem, with zero bad side effects. Weight wouldn't be noticed with either option, and turbo-lag is a joke on a smaller turbo. People think lag like from a 2JZ-GTE with a huge single on it is how all turbos behave.

Then you have those saying "off-boost"/"lag" kills. But when confronted about this car's power, "just stay in the revs!". Double standards.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Scion FR-S

Definitely something to check out on a test drive - how comfortable are you going to be with a screaming engine when you are trying to change lanes quickly on an arterial road?

People complain about the delayed throttle response of a turbo, but if you suddenly see an opportunity to overtake but have to downshift to do it (whereas you don't in the turbo), that delay will be MUCH longer than the turbo's.

That's a good point. Honda guys used to give me crap about turbo lag all the time yet when I drove some Honda NA 4 cyl VTEC engines, It was like having massive turbo lag without a turbo. Instead of the power not coming in until 2k rpm with a turbo, it doesn't come in until about 6k rpm with VTEC. LOL

But I don't expect this engine to be as bad in that regard. It clearly has more torque than the Hondas down low.

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

the engine actually doesnt make 151 lb-ft its more around 169lb-ft so really the FA 20 is lacking 11lb-ft off the Porsche engine and its .5L smaller

143 wheel lb-ft ~ 169 crank lb-ft

Interesting. I wonder why it would have more power at the wheels? The Boxster obviously doesn't have a driveshaft but maybe the wheels and brake discs are too big and heavy.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Interesting. I wonder why it would have more power at the wheels? The Boxster obviously doesn't have a driveshaft but maybe the wheels and brake discs are too big and heavy.

Having extra 2 cylinders goes long way

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

That's a good point. Honda guys used to give me crap about turbo lag all the time yet when I drove some Honda NA 4 cyl VTEC engines, It was like having massive turbo lag without a turbo. Instead of the power not coming in until 2k rpm with a turbo, it doesn't come in until about 6k rpm with VTEC. LOL

But I don't expect this engine to be as bad in that regard. It clearly has more torque than the Hondas down low.


Interesting. I wonder why it would have more power at the wheels? The Boxster obviously doesn't have a driveshaft but maybe the wheels and brake discs are too big and heavy.

Actually Carbonblue is quoting the insideline dyno which reads high. I wouldn't count on the torque being underrated by Subaru/Toyota. It isn't a turbocharged engine. I remember they dyno a 3.8 GC and the wheel torque was 262 lb ft to the wheels vs 266 lb ft to the crank.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Where did this rumour come from?

I don't know. I remember reading it on another forum. Hence, me calling it a rumor.