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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 04-25-2012, 09:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus29 View Post
Just to compile what I found in those reviews so far, comparing the FRS to BRZ:


Motor Authority:
"But turn it all off, and the FR-S reveals its true ability--a level of ability that may even surpass its Subaru twin.

The FR-S isn't identical to the BRZ. It has stiffer rear springs and rear bushings. That makes it a bit more willing to rotate, both on power and off, and yields a balance that feels both natural and easily controlled. It's a conscious decision taken by the Scion crew to make their version just a bit more fun, a bit better-suited to those with as much taste for a well-carved apex and corner-entry tossability as for outright speed. And that, in a nutshell, is the Scion FR-S."

Motor Trend:
"During our testing, we recorded a 25.9-second figure-eight run at a 0.67 g average -- a full second quicker than the Fiat 500 Abarth we recently tested, a half-second quicker than the Honda Civic Si coupe, and even three-tenths of a second quicker than the Subaru BRZ."

Automobile Mag:
"As a result, the cars were essentially neck-and-neck in acceleration runs, with the Scionís 6.2-second run to 60 mph edging out the Subaruís 6.4-second 0-60 sprint....

The Scion FR-S, on the other hand, is more playful -- and has a temper. Think of an RX-8 with some MX-5 Miata thrown into the mix. Stiffer rear springs and bushings help make the Scion more neutral at the limit. A tiny amount of initial understeer can be nixed by your right foot with no hesitation. Lift slightly in a corner and the FR-Sís rear tires come unstuck. Get on the throttle too hard, and without delay the rear end begins to rotate. Its actions are quick, so your reactions on the steering wheel need to be fast, too -- but thereís more than enough steering feel coming through the electrically assisted rack that youíll feel the back end coming around right away.
A beginner driver might have an easier time controlling the Subaru at the limit -- more experienced drivers might prefer the Scion. As the near-identical performance numbers show, neither has a clear performance advantage -- itís all about the feel. The Scion offers the best balance of any sports car within three times its price. Well, except the Subaru, which trails right behind."


Inside Line:
"Sixty miles per hour is reached in 6.6 seconds (6.3 seconds with one foot of rollout like on a drag strip), and the quarter-mile in 14.8 seconds at 93.8 mph. Yes, this result is notably quicker and faster than the BRZ, which did those deeds in 7.3, 7.0, and 15.3 seconds at 92.1, respectively. What's going on? The data reveals that the BRZ actually accelerated quicker initially, but at 19 mph the Subaru laid over a bit and the Scion powered ahead and never looked back. The explanation is equal parts launch technique and gearchange speed. The Scion's tire-spinning launch allowed it power through the 4000-rpm torque hole we observed in our dyno testing where the Subaru bogged down briefly. Plus, our BRZ tester was plagued with a finicky 1-2 gearchange which ate up precious time en route to 60 mph."


Seems to be some truth underlying all this.
Yes, but these jouranlist all talk to each other on the same venue and discuss things to each other... I would imagine they would have different thoughts if they were prohibited from talking amongst themselves.... :P
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:00 PM   #36
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Really Mods?

Erasing my Posts already?

Like I said If at this point in the cycle you believe the FRs is faster than a BRZ don't buy a BRz you do not have the intellectual capacity to maintain a car of this limited production status and do not posses the critical thinking abilities to secure the vehicle a long and prosperous life...

and you might be stupid...
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:16 PM   #37
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Really Mods?

Erasing my Posts already?

Like I said If at this point in the cycle you believe the FRs is faster than a BRZ don't buy a BRz you do not have the intellectual capacity to maintain a car of this limited production status and do not posses the critical thinking abilities to secure the vehicle a long and prosperous life...

and you might be stupid...

Perhaps the mods should delete your most recent post too. How is it a mark of a lack of intellectual capacity or stupidness to buy the FRS over the BRZ IF (emphasis on IF) it's true that the FRS is faster than the BRZ? The cars are roughly identical, but if the FRS is faster AND cheaper, wouldn't it seem sensible (or at least certainly not stupid) to go FRS?

In any event, blindly buying the BRZ for more money IF all reviews (and your test-drive) tells you that the FRS is better/faster, would seem to be a sign of a lack of intellectual capacity, if anything would. If you are a critical thinker, shouldn't you compare price and performance when deciding to purchase?

------

Thanks for all the helpful posts above, btw. I certainly feel that it would be unwise to read too much into these reviews. (That being said, they probably shouldn't be ignored completely either.)
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Old 04-26-2012, 03:51 PM   #38
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OP, like many on this forum people seem to forget that BRZ is slghtly heavyer than the FRS due to the standard equipments.

with such low margen as shown in the magazine tests of .2 seconds. the difference can all be in the margin of error, or the slight weight increase in the BRZ is taking its slight effect on the results.

if you were to remove some of the extra equipments, I bet the time would be the same between the two cares
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by wu_dot_com View Post
OP, like many on this forum people seem to forget that BRZ is slghtly heavyer than the FRS due to the standard equipments.

with such low margen as shown in the magazine tests of .2 seconds. the difference can all be in the margin of error, or the slight weight increase in the BRZ is taking its slight effect on the results.

if you were to remove some of the extra equipments, I bet the time would be the same between the two cares
I am not trying to pick on you because you are technically right, that the BRZ is slightly heavier. However while we are on that subject, for a long time now there seems to be this general belief that the FR-S is significantly lighter than the BRZ. I know that is not what you are stating, but it seems a lot of people are justifying the weight difference in favor the of the FR-S.

Personally this always mystified me considering they are going to be built identically for the USDM market, and the only real difference is the fact the BRZ has a navigation head unit and maybe the weight of a couple extra ballasts for the HID system. How people thought this would be a big difference is beyond me.

To those who don't know, the curb weights for both production versions of the vehicles have been posted. What's the difference? Just how much more does the BRZ weigh compared to the FR-S? 4 pounds. The BRZ weighs 4 pounds more than the FR-S. When the difference between the two cars is less than packing your lunch, it's time to stop professing what a great performance benefit the weight savings is giving you.
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:11 PM   #40
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that's like saying a 240sx XE is faster than an LE

if there is any discrepancy in the cars it (as was pointed out by Jason Kavanagh of insideline) comes down to driver, car's history, and conditions. there is an ever so slight difference in the weight of the vehicles and it uses slightly different dampers/springs/bushings whatever....

so back to where we were, if you honestly think 2 cars with identical chassis (front fascia aside) identical powertrains, the same drive ratio, tire size, ecu calibration, intake and exhaust track, are going to perform so vastly different that one is the clear cut "faster car" and you are never going to, change tires, or shocks or springs or bushings or put items in the trunk or carry fat chicks or eat before driving, or drive with clothes on.....


the differences are within margin of error, (as stated but i know you can't read)

it has been known for months that the FR-s intentionally chose rates and damping for the rear to make the car more prone to oversteer. so yeah that'll feel faster, and on some courses especially with limited seat time the car that rotates more readily will be faster...

so since you missed it the critical thinking part is where you draw real conclusions from statements and facts rather than just believing what some kid that probably can't drive is whining about on the interwebs...

Not to mention if you are buying this car to go fast you are probably buying the wrong car (whichever you buy)
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:43 PM   #41
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I'm buying the BRZ and it will be faster, because I'm driving it against you


We ought to organize a little friendly competition between FR-S and BRZ owners after 6 months or so of ownership. Group people in two or three different classes and see who comes out on top - could be fun!!
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Old 04-26-2012, 04:59 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich View Post
I am not trying to pick on you because you are technically right, that the BRZ is slightly heavier. However while we are on that subject, for a long time now there seems to be this general belief that the FR-S is significantly lighter than the BRZ. I know that is not what you are stating, but it seems a lot of people are justifying the weight difference in favor the of the FR-S.

Personally this always mystified me considering they are going to be built identically for the USDM market, and the only real difference is the fact the BRZ has a navigation head unit and maybe the weight of a couple extra ballasts for the HID system. How people thought this would be a big difference is beyond me.

To those who don't know, the curb weights for both production versions of the vehicles have been posted. What's the difference? Just how much more does the BRZ weigh compared to the FR-S? 4 pounds. The BRZ weighs 4 pounds more than the FR-S. When the difference between the two cars is less than packing your lunch, it's time to stop professing what a great performance benefit the weight savings is giving you.
damn, its that close for the premium BRZ vs FR-S, what about the limited?

too lazy to do the search.
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Old 04-26-2012, 05:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkullWorks View Post
...(as stated but i know you can't read)...

...so since you missed it the critical thinking part is where you draw real conclusions from statements and facts rather than just believing what some kid that probably can't drive is whining about on the interwebs...

Not to mention if you are buying this car to go fast you are probably buying the wrong car (whichever you buy)
I'm confused...are these comments directed towards me? Why the hostility? I'm trying to ask a serious question based on a theme running through a number of the recent reviews. Are these reviews from Inside Line, Automobile mag, Motor Trend, and Motor Authority written by kids who can't drive? I'm very confused by what you're saying...it must be my illiteracy and lack of intellectual ability.
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Old 04-26-2012, 05:12 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by wu_dot_com View Post
damn, its that close for the premium BRZ vs FR-S, what about the limited?

too lazy to do the search.
Per Ichitaka's post
FR-S MT: 2,758 lbs

Per Subaru's site
BRZ Premium MT: 2,762 lbs
BRZ Limited MT: 2,776 lbs

Weight is most definitely not a factor unless you believe 4-18 lbs make a difference. Your normal body weight fluctuates by 2 lbs day to day.

If you do believe that makes a difference and you on the big boned side, I suggest you go on a diet.
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Old 04-26-2012, 05:33 PM   #45
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What's the difference in spring rates between the two? Has anyone gotten actual data on that?

Seems like a collosal waste of money for Toyota to test, develop, and manufacture a separate set of springs for the FR-S if all that effort ended up making a negligable difference in handling.

But.. stranger things have happened.
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Old 04-26-2012, 05:43 PM   #46
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OMG This thread is ridiculous.

You could probably take two FRS (same specs) and run different times because of manufacturing tolerances in the engine, tires, dampers, etc...
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:13 PM   #47
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my message was aimed at anyone who had issue, specifically at you yes, but not exclusively.

Jason's thoughts on why the times were different were even quoted in this post atleast once,

show me some hard proof that the FRs is faster than the BRz by an amount that is even potentially worth talking about, same day same driver, then we can talk about it, short of that happening this whole conversation is about people that are probably over extended to buy this car anyway convincing themselves that they are buying the FRs because it is "faster" (albeit by .1 or .2 seconds to sixty in an unimpressive run to 60 anyway) rather than the reality of because it is cheaper.

So again, if you are buying this car because it is fast, then you are making a bad choice to start, in order for these cars to be fast you are gonna need to knock a couple WHOLE seconds off the times not a couple tenths.

My reaction time at the strip varies more than the recorded variances in the 0-60 tests,

heck on an unfamiliar transmission my accumulated time out of gear in a 1/4 mile run may vary by more than the recorded variances in the 0-60 tests,

The cars are different in so many little ways that to buy one over the other blindly because it gets to 60 (potentially) a little tiny itsy bitty bit faster is kinda missing the whole point of the car, because the prius is gonna pass both cars on the straight any way lol
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:26 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by SkullWorks View Post
my message was aimed at anyone who had issue, specifically at you yes, but not exclusively.

Jason's thoughts on why the times were different were even quoted in this post atleast once,

show me some hard proof that the FRs is faster than the BRz by an amount that is even potentially worth talking about, same day same driver, then we can talk about it, short of that happening this whole conversation is about people that are probably over extended to buy this car anyway convincing themselves that they are buying the FRs because it is "faster" (albeit by .1 or .2 seconds to sixty in an unimpressive run to 60 anyway) rather than the reality of because it is cheaper.

So again, if you are buying this car because it is fast, then you are making a bad choice to start, in order for these cars to be fast you are gonna need to knock a couple WHOLE seconds off the times not a couple tenths.

My reaction time at the strip varies more than the recorded variances in the 0-60 tests,

heck on an unfamiliar transmission my accumulated time out of gear in a 1/4 mile run may vary by more than the recorded variances in the 0-60 tests,

The cars are different in so many little ways that to buy one over the other blindly because it gets to 60 (potentially) a little tiny itsy bitty bit faster is kinda missing the whole point of the car, because the prius is gonna pass both cars on the straight any way lol
^ Agreed
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:52 PM   #49
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show me some hard proof that the FRs is faster than the BRz by an amount that is even potentially worth talking about, same day same driver, then we can talk about it, short of that happening this whole conversation is about people that are probably over extended to buy this car anyway convincing themselves that they are buying the FRs because it is "faster" (albeit by .1 or .2 seconds to sixty in an unimpressive run to 60 anyway) rather than the reality of because it is cheaper.
OK, fair enough. But did you read the quotes I posted in the thread from the recent reviews? I'm not relying on some kid on the interwebs or some fanboys trying to make themselves feel better about buying the FRS. I'm talking about these FRS reviews from these reputable (?) online sources saying that the FRS "may even surpass its Subaru twin", is "just a bit more fun", "a bit better-suited to those with as much taste for a well-carved apex and corner-entry tossability as for outright speed", "more playful", "more neutral at the limit", "notably quicker and faster than the BRZ", and that "more experienced drivers might prefer the Scion", and that "the Subaru...trails right behind".

These are quotes from these reviews, not from forum discussion.

And in response to uspspro, I don't see how the thread is ridiculous...if anything, wouldn't it be these reviews that are making these claims about the FRS>BRZ?
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:17 PM   #50
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Most of those quote have nothing to do with the FRS being faster, which was your original question. Most are comments about the driving feel and handling characteristics.

Just buy the FRS and then you can be the bench racing champion.

Last edited by WhiteGDB; 04-26-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engee View Post
Per Ichitaka's post
FR-S MT: 2,758 lbs

Per Subaru's site
BRZ Premium MT: 2,762 lbs
BRZ Limited MT: 2,776 lbs

Weight is most definitely not a factor unless you believe 4-18 lbs make a difference. Your normal body weight fluctuates by 2 lbs day to day.

If you do believe that makes a difference and you on the big boned side, I suggest you go on a diet.
Speaking of losing weight and before anyone goes all on me, I'm serious about this question.

I'm buying the FR-S as sort of "congratulations, keep it up" present for myself because I recently lost 80 lbs (heading to 100lb). Assuming the above weight is sans driver, that means that the car + me now would weight 2.6% less than when I started, and when I'm completely done will weigh 3.3% less.

Any way to calculate what a difference that might make in 0 - 60 or other such performance measurements?

I want to make a placard for the car that reminds me every time I get in it, how much speed I've added to it by hitting my goal.
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