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Old 03-26-2012, 11:40 AM   #29
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What is the world avg. Mpg standards for about 2014 to 2016 cause i highly doubt 27 avg would pass @@ i might be wrong though
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:43 PM   #30
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What is the world avg. Mpg standards for about 2014 to 2016 cause i highly doubt 27 avg would pass @@ i might be wrong though
Don't know world average, don't think there is one. There's CAFE here and I'm not sure if Euro 5/6 regulations are emissions and mileage, or just emissions.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:25 PM   #31
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One of their big hurdles is they can't mess with their intake and exhaust events, since they are fixed ports rather than phaseable cams. They have their work cut out for them...
That's true, although I think that matters more for improving torque at different points in the rpm range than emissions and whatever. Set up the ports for very little overlap, set up intake for high rpm power, low rpm VE goes down and fuel economy goes up. Of course, this is given that they can figure out the rest of the problems first.

Now the little overlap is bad for power, but one of those electric turbo systems could nicely take care of the problem and give efficiency improvements, albeit at higher cost. But we're talking >400hp anyways :P
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:45 PM   #32
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That's true, although I think that matters more for improving torque at different points in the rpm range than emissions and whatever. Set up the ports for very little overlap, set up intake for high rpm power, low rpm VE goes down and fuel economy goes up. Of course, this is given that they can figure out the rest of the problems first.

Now the little overlap is bad for power, but one of those electric turbo systems could nicely take care of the problem and give efficiency improvements, albeit at higher cost. But we're talking >400hp anyways :P
They've mentioned the rotary in the context of the generator engine in a Volt-type hybrid in the past as well. This may be more realistic.

They are un-nervingly smooth, and can probably be tuned to be very efficient at a narrow rpm, and just spin there until the battery's charged.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:03 PM   #33
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They've mentioned the rotary in the context of the generator engine in a Volt-type hybrid in the past as well. This may be more realistic.

They are un-nervingly smooth, and can probably be tuned to be very efficient at a narrow rpm, and just spin there until the battery's charged.
As an electric power generation unit peak efficiency would be most important as you know. The challenge I see here is that the surface area to volume ratio on these things suck, so they reach peak efficiency at 5000rpm or something whereas piston engines of comparable displacement reach peak efficiency usually no higher than 3000rpm. I imagine 5000rpm is a bit noisy. If they can redesign the seals as described in the article, friction could be much less of a problem compared to piston engines though, and it would be promising.

Oh right, does anyone have any idea how the friction of a rotary compares to a piston engine? Rotaries have inherently less friction in the design, but I remember reading that because of sealing considerations they have more? friction.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:08 PM   #34
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As an electric power generation unit peak efficiency would be most important as you know. The challenge I see here is that the surface area to volume ratio on these things suck, so they reach peak efficiency at 5000rpm or something whereas piston engines of comparable displacement reach peak efficiency usually no higher than 3000rpm. I imagine 5000rpm is a bit noisy. If they can redesign the seals as described in the article, friction could be much less of a problem compared to piston engines though, and it would be promising.

Oh right, does anyone have any idea how the friction of a rotary compares to a piston engine? Rotaries have inherently less friction in the design, but I remember reading that because of sealing considerations they have more? friction.
You really need to be in one to get the experience. They are spooky quiet/smooth. They don't feel like normal cars (personally I don't like them at all).

5k with a good muffler would probably be fine.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:02 AM   #35
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5k with a good muffler would probably be fine.
Not to mention that if you're only going to run it at a single RPM, you can tune the engine mounts and muffler/resonator specifically for the frequencies produced at that particular rpm.

A rotary would package really well with a YASA-style generator mounted directly to the eccentric shaft and end plate. I want to do it myself, just to bask in the awesomeness.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:17 AM   #36
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Give me rx7 styling and go with piston ease of maintence and Im in. Othan a turbo'd e46 m3 an rx7 is one of the few cars I would ditch my miata for. And even then it would be a very tough call
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:12 PM   #37
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Picked up a book on 2-stroke tuning to see how much more advanced they were in their exhaust tuning. Then I realized they are practically at full overlap for their whole events. D'oh. Is interesting to see how much of a change pulse tuning can make on them, though.

Buuuuut... I found out that some use a power valve that basically alters the height or shape of their ports. Since a rotary is essentially a 2-stroke except with a fairy-pushed couple of triangles rather than natural and godly pistons, I figured why don't they use something like this, too?

If they used one on either side (or top/bottom, whatever...) of their ports they could effectively change their advance and retard like cam phasers, AND have control over duration. However this looks more likely to apply to a peripheral port setup, and the Renesis is side ported (? in the end-piece separating parts, not the barrels) for emissions, I believe?

But if it was an overlap thing for emissions, and if they can control it they can go back to the more flow-friendly peripheral porting maybe? But maybe peripheral porting is worse for apex sealing?

Any reason this isn't used? Or maybe it has been used in the past? Reliability and complexity are the first strikes against it, off the top of my head...
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:10 PM   #38
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Reliability and complexity are the first strikes against it, off the top of my head...
As opposed to laser spark plugs?

Actually, I would think it would be harder to do properly with a peripheral port because of the curved surface and the water jacket. Interestingly though, I've heard that N/A rotaries respond quite well to headers with expansion chambers.
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:24 PM   #39
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As opposed to laser spark plugs?

Actually, I would think it would be harder to do properly with a peripheral port because of the curved surface and the water jacket. Interestingly though, I've heard that N/A rotaries respond quite well to headers with expansion chambers.
The expansion chamber doesn't surprise me a bit. At the drag strip there was a ported to the nuts 12A car and it had the typical 2-stroke ping-ping exhaust sound.

One of my old co-workers was a rotary eccentric (see what I did there?). He would spout off all about how awesome they were all the time. Yet in the 3 years I worked with him he went through 5 FB's 12A and 13Bs and blew up an FD. I've handled more rotary guts helping him rebuild them than is probably healthy.

Him: "There's nothing wrong with them once you dowel pin the barrels, replace the apex seals, ditch the emissions equipment, add oil to your gas, and rebuild them every 60,000km because there is no indication from the apex seals about when they will die and seize your motor..."

Me: "Uh, right. What killed this one?"

Him: "I won't know until I take it apart."


I still envy their packaging, though...
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Old 03-31-2012, 05:29 PM   #40
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I like the sound of this.
Me 2....i grew up in a rotary...but i gotta say a lighter miata skyactive turbo has me drooling...
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