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Old 03-25-2012, 08:42 PM   #18
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mmm 1.6L is quite a bit of displacement (3.2L equivalent), if they can hit 20/27 EPA that would be pretty phenomenal IMO. If they can get BSFC to within 10% of traditional piston engines they could squeeze those numbers out.

With a 1.6L engine with significant combustion efficiency improvements you'd be (hopefully) looking at well over 300hp though, since those rotaries rev so high. 100hp/L happens at about 7500rpm redline or so (power peak somewhere in the low 7000s such as on the FA20), 9000rpm gives you over 120hp/L on a well designed street legal engine (such as the S2000, which hits max power in the mid 8000s). 9000rpm with a 1.6L rotary with comparable efficiency to a piston engine would be like 3.2*120=380hp at a bit over 8k rpm :O. The Renesis managed like 230 out of 2.6L effective displacement with a really high redline, so its BSFC at peak power was probably about 25% higher (assuming comparable volumetric efficiency to the F20C). A lot of the fuel consumption is attributed to poor combustion, and so if they can fix the fuel consumption they should be able to increase the power output.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:47 PM   #19
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mmm 1.6L is quite a bit of displacement (3.2L equivalent), if they can hit 20/27 EPA that would be pretty phenomenal IMO. If they can get BSFC to within 10% of traditional piston engines they could squeeze those numbers out.

With a 1.6L engine with significant combustion efficiency improvements you'd be looking at well over 300hp though, since those rotaries rev so high.
If they could get to 300 hp and still meet emissions (the killer with rotaries) and get in the mid twenties for mpg, I would spooge...
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:52 PM   #20
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Do you guys think they would carry on the 2+2 from the RX8 or go back to the 2 seater ala RX7?
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:55 PM   #21
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Just a guess, but I'm guessing the displacement increase to 1.6L in the 16X was to decrease the surface area/volume ratio. They also modified the geometry to improve combustion chamber surface area/volume ratio, and increase compression ratio (to a modest 10:1 or something). However the combustion chamber still has a huge surface area compared to a piston engine, which doesn't bode well for low rpm efficiency, but they'll need to try to run it at lower rpm to get acceptable fuel economy due to the high displacement.

Their fuel efficiency in the Renesis was something like 30% worse than a comparable piston engine, peak BSFC falls short something like 10-20% or so, and at max power we can see that the combustion efficiency is still bad enough to cause over 25% efficiency loss compared to a piston engine, so if they can close the gap to 10% under normal driving circumstances that would be nothing short of a miracle.

Good luck to them. The rotary is way too cool to just throw away IMO.
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:29 PM   #22
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I hope mazda comes out with a high mpg 240hp 2+2 coupe that looks like the rx7...

and nissan debuts the s16 naturally aspirated inline 4 producing 240hp as well...

both coming in at 2900 lbs ish wet
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:38 PM   #23
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I hope mazda comes out with a high mpg 240hp 2+2 coupe that looks like the rx7...

and nissan debuts the s16 naturally aspirated inline 4 producing 240hp as well...

both coming in at 2900 lbs ish wet
Keep dreaming.
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:41 PM   #24
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I just hope they solve the flooding issues...
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:47 PM   #25
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Keep dreaming.
Well it's not actually that hard to do, but the market is kinda iffy imo. If he meant rotary, then probably not, you'll probably see rotaries restricted to high power applications for the reason I just described.

As for Nissan, 240hp NA isn't that hard to hit but Nissan hasn't built a potent low displacement engine I think. If it's cheap, it won't be V6. Tuned VQ25 could probably hit 240hp, dunno.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:06 PM   #26
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Keep dreaming.

Isn't that the whole point of this whole tread?
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:56 PM   #27
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I like the sound of this.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:57 AM   #28
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mmm 1.6L is quite a bit of displacement (3.2L equivalent), if they can hit 20/27 EPA that would be pretty phenomenal IMO. If they can get BSFC to within 10% of traditional piston engines they could squeeze those numbers out.

With a 1.6L engine with significant combustion efficiency improvements you'd be (hopefully) looking at well over 300hp though, since those rotaries rev so high. 100hp/L happens at about 7500rpm redline or so (power peak somewhere in the low 7000s such as on the FA20), 9000rpm gives you over 120hp/L on a well designed street legal engine (such as the S2000, which hits max power in the mid 8000s). 9000rpm with a 1.6L rotary with comparable efficiency to a piston engine would be like 3.2*120=380hp at a bit over 8k rpm :O. The Renesis managed like 230 out of 2.6L effective displacement with a really high redline, so its BSFC at peak power was probably about 25% higher (assuming comparable volumetric efficiency to the F20C). A lot of the fuel consumption is attributed to poor combustion, and so if they can fix the fuel consumption they should be able to increase the power output.
One of their big hurdles is they can't mess with their intake and exhaust events, since they are fixed ports rather than phaseable cams. They have their work cut out for them...
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:40 AM   #29
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What is the world avg. Mpg standards for about 2014 to 2016 cause i highly doubt 27 avg would pass @@ i might be wrong though
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:43 PM   #30
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What is the world avg. Mpg standards for about 2014 to 2016 cause i highly doubt 27 avg would pass @@ i might be wrong though
Don't know world average, don't think there is one. There's CAFE here and I'm not sure if Euro 5/6 regulations are emissions and mileage, or just emissions.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:25 PM   #31
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One of their big hurdles is they can't mess with their intake and exhaust events, since they are fixed ports rather than phaseable cams. They have their work cut out for them...
That's true, although I think that matters more for improving torque at different points in the rpm range than emissions and whatever. Set up the ports for very little overlap, set up intake for high rpm power, low rpm VE goes down and fuel economy goes up. Of course, this is given that they can figure out the rest of the problems first.

Now the little overlap is bad for power, but one of those electric turbo systems could nicely take care of the problem and give efficiency improvements, albeit at higher cost. But we're talking >400hp anyways :P
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:45 PM   #32
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That's true, although I think that matters more for improving torque at different points in the rpm range than emissions and whatever. Set up the ports for very little overlap, set up intake for high rpm power, low rpm VE goes down and fuel economy goes up. Of course, this is given that they can figure out the rest of the problems first.

Now the little overlap is bad for power, but one of those electric turbo systems could nicely take care of the problem and give efficiency improvements, albeit at higher cost. But we're talking >400hp anyways :P
They've mentioned the rotary in the context of the generator engine in a Volt-type hybrid in the past as well. This may be more realistic.

They are un-nervingly smooth, and can probably be tuned to be very efficient at a narrow rpm, and just spin there until the battery's charged.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:03 PM   #33
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They've mentioned the rotary in the context of the generator engine in a Volt-type hybrid in the past as well. This may be more realistic.

They are un-nervingly smooth, and can probably be tuned to be very efficient at a narrow rpm, and just spin there until the battery's charged.
As an electric power generation unit peak efficiency would be most important as you know. The challenge I see here is that the surface area to volume ratio on these things suck, so they reach peak efficiency at 5000rpm or something whereas piston engines of comparable displacement reach peak efficiency usually no higher than 3000rpm. I imagine 5000rpm is a bit noisy. If they can redesign the seals as described in the article, friction could be much less of a problem compared to piston engines though, and it would be promising.

Oh right, does anyone have any idea how the friction of a rotary compares to a piston engine? Rotaries have inherently less friction in the design, but I remember reading that because of sealing considerations they have more? friction.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:08 PM   #34
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As an electric power generation unit peak efficiency would be most important as you know. The challenge I see here is that the surface area to volume ratio on these things suck, so they reach peak efficiency at 5000rpm or something whereas piston engines of comparable displacement reach peak efficiency usually no higher than 3000rpm. I imagine 5000rpm is a bit noisy. If they can redesign the seals as described in the article, friction could be much less of a problem compared to piston engines though, and it would be promising.

Oh right, does anyone have any idea how the friction of a rotary compares to a piston engine? Rotaries have inherently less friction in the design, but I remember reading that because of sealing considerations they have more? friction.
You really need to be in one to get the experience. They are spooky quiet/smooth. They don't feel like normal cars (personally I don't like them at all).

5k with a good muffler would probably be fine.
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