Dealership Accuses Variable Valve Timing (VVT) Ajustment

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Frost

Welcome to the internet? There's a lot of hate on this forum (like any other forum) and people are quick to jump on someone.

I completely understand and agree with you. BUT, that does not make it right nor it means I should keep quiet and move along if I see it.

Enough of my keep us updated Shiro.

[N1rve]

Google "Black Box" It's already been installed on many cars, but it's going to be standard on all cars in 2015.

There was someone here with a blown engine as well. They pulled data from the black box and it said he reved his car to 8500 RPM. Fixed it on "good faith" apparently.

Toyota has been flashing ECUs for the RPM Dip if I can recall correctly....

But I'm like pretty sure the VVT-i is controlled by the ECU. I used to work at a Toyota Dealership, so my knowledge is like....grainy. Just trying to help you out as much as I can.

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by shiro

I was driving the car normally to a meeting when the engine started to make some bad noises.

Was it a loud "clack...clack...clack" type noise?

Overall, if they [the dealership] is claiming the AVCS has been adjusted I am curious if the AVCS was installed wrong from stock. My tuner would never touch the AVCS and the only people that have touched my car is myself, my tuner, the dealership and the shop that put the car together prior to sale. Thanks again!

It's not impossible. I know Ota Gunma is struggling to keep up with demand for these cars, mistakes can happen when the factory is rushed.

[FirestormFRS]

Originally Posted by shiro

Hi Everyone,

The dealership's Service Manager accused me (and/or my tuner) of adjusting my Variable Vavle Timing (VVT) because of the turbo install. He stated the "Cover was on upside down and the timing was adjusted."

So the dealer is stating that the timing chain cover is put on backwards (ie left side is facing right side) and that your tuner manually set the timing either advanced or retarded by physically moving the chain one or two links left or right.

Having viewed many field service reports that's how I read it with the limited information you've provided.

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

So the dealer is stating that the timing chain cover is put on backwards (ie left side is facing right side) and that your tuner manually set the timing either advanced or retarded by physically moving the chain one or two links left or right.

That was my thought as well, which is why I said it doesn't make sense. The timing chain cover is one piece, it can only be installed one way.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by shiro

But I’m not leaving too much information out. Honestly, I don’t race my car and I didn’t build it for big gains. The turbo was on for about 600miles (mainly highway since it took me 450miles to drive from my tuner back home). The biggest thing was the issues were present prior to the turbo and the dealership never logged any of the times I was in the shop. That was unfortunate for me. I’ve read some successes with members that have had turbos on and through time Subaru (maybe Toyota) has fixed the issues. I’m trying the same route but it will be a long road.

Maybe the dealer wrote up some BS to get themselves out of it, but this could've been solved a long time ago.

I highlighted the most important part, but let me just sum it up (and correct me if I'm wrong):

• You had issues with the car
• Dealer did not document issues (according to you)
• You turbocharged your car thinking issues would go away
• You've had to remove the turbocharger to solve your initial issues that were never fixed.
• Dealer is now giving you BS to get out of this on their end.

I am definitely not a fan of the dealer, especially ones that won't listen to reason. But... why were your issues not addressed PRIOR to you modding the engine? The mere fact that they were present was a huge red flag to me.

I love modding cars as much as the next guy, but I'm not made of money (and neither are you), and issues like this just makes the car a lot more expensive to maintain over the long run (both in terms of dollars and time), and (more importantly) the manufacturer will log this in their file as another "modified car that has caused warranty issues" case, and it doesn't do the community any good.

I am not going to chime in on the actual discrepancy between what the service department claims vs what is reality (others have already said it), but this needs to be noted for future reference.

Car has problem with engine, DON'T GO MODIFYING IT AFTERWARDS.

-alex

P.S. I'm well aware of what the question is. However, the actual TSB in question, what the service department wrote up, and a bunch of other info is still missing. It's just a bunch of armchair mechanics trying to remotely diagnose an issue...

[s2d4]

@shiro

What issues did you have before putting the turbo on?

[shiro]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Lots of posts here to condemn Shiro. Who cares why/what/who/when he took the car to the dealer. He never asked if he could still use his warranty. He never said he is trying to get away with any wrongdoing. He is being honest with the dealer, dealer decides if they want to help, its that simple.
@shiro, I applaud you for keeping calm and not feeding a single troll.

This is the classic 21st Century human attitude, we are all entitled to be assh0les, we are all entitled to judge everyone and give zero f*cks... Jesus....

Was it that hard to just answer his question and move on?

VVT can be adjusted by the tuner and it is adjusted electronically. Now, if they can adjust it far enough that it can cause damage to engine components I DOUBT it.

Also, it is very probable the failure has to do with the AVCS system not working properly from before you installed the turbo, but it will be extremely hard to prove and the dealer will most probably blame the turbo and be done with it.

Thanks for calling it as it is. I appreciate it. And I was unaware the VVT could be adjusted by the tuner electronically. The good news is my tuner had not adjusted the VVT or the timing chain.

This is my main concern. Say I replace the engine and keep the car stock. Since the VVT is adjusted through electronic means like the ECU and those variables remained unchanged from factory then I still have a chance of repeating the same incident. That would really be a bummer. That's why I would like Toyota to help me diagnose these issues. I've already been told by corporate that even if they find the vehicle out of warranty they can "review of possible partial assistance which is provided in a form of a reimbursement." Either way, I'm on the right track.

Thanks again!!

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

Can I ask why you would even risk putting a turbo on the car if you had taken it to the dealer multiple times prior for engine issues and they never fully resolved them?

Good question; honestly, I did not know the depths of the issue nor was I aware the engine issues where that serious. I moved a little quick putting on the turbo in under 6 months so I honestly should have waited longer before moding.

Originally Posted by BunnyRZed

The reality is they'll blame it on the turbo regardless of whether or not the problem existed before or after the turbo got installed. Keep up the spirit and let us know how it goes.

What is Not Covered:

Damage or Malfunction Due to Improper Repair or Unauthorized Parts

These warranties do not cover any part which malfunctions, fails or is damaged due to any unauthorized alteration or modification made to the vehicle such as the removal of parts or the installation of parts, equipment or accessories or improper repairs or adjustments not approved or recommended by SOA.

https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/warranties-2013.html

Thanks for the source and quote details. It will be an interesting set of events. The win will be determined by how well the case is formed and how far I'm willing to go. Luckily for me I'm an analyst and have been for many years. So producing metrics, reports and compiling data is what I do best. I will be sure to let you all know on any further updates. =D

Originally Posted by N1rve

Google "Black Box" It's already been installed on many cars, but it's going to be standard on all cars in 2015.

There was someone here with a blown engine as well. They pulled data from the black box and it said he reved his car to 8500 RPM. Fixed it on "good faith" apparently.

Toyota has been flashing ECUs for the RPM Dip if I can recall correctly....

But I'm like pretty sure the VVT-i is controlled by the ECU. I used to work at a Toyota Dealership, so my knowledge is like....grainy. Just trying to help you out as much as I can.

My apologies; you were right. As of 2013, 96% of all new cars have an Event Data Recorder (EDR) installed. I went further and did some research into the EDR system and it's kind of interesting. This is the information I found:

Is it installed on the 2013 FR-S: YES
Source: http://www.rimkus.com/uploads/pdfs/E...a_Recorder.pdf

What it records (Consumer Reports):
• The forward and lateral crash force
• The crash event duration
• Indicated vehicle speed
• Accelerator position
• Engine rpm
• Brake application and antilock brake activation
• Steering wheel angle
• Stability control engagement
• Vehicle roll angle, in case of a rollover
• Number of times the vehicle has been started
• Driver and front-passenger safety belt engagement, and pretensioner or force limiter engagement
• Air bag deployment, speed, and faults for all air bags
• Front seat positions
• Occupant size
• Number of crashes (one or more impacts during the final crash event)
Source: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...ders/index.htm

Privacy Act and Personal concerns: The data on the EDR is personal/private property of the vehicle's owner. In some instances, court warrants need to be issues to access it's data if approval is not granted by the owner. Also, dealerships usually do not have the tools or software to access it's data since it does not use the OBD port.

Extra sources:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-technolog...rash-data.html

Originally Posted by andrew20195

Was it a loud "clack...clack...clack" type noise?

It's not impossible. I know Ota Gunma is struggling to keep up with demand for these cars, mistakes can happen when the factory is rushed.

Actually, I have a video of the moment before my car died. I will post it for you to hear the sound.

One-week prior with extremely rough idle. Camera is resting on the steering wheel.
[ame]http://youtu.be/ZqdeY7N-2tE[/ame]


A few seconds before the FA20 engine ciezed up. No CEL or ECU logs.
[ame]http://youtu.be/hclghrAgZPI[/ame]

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

So the dealer is stating that the timing chain cover is put on backwards (ie left side is facing right side) and that your tuner manually set the timing either advanced or retarded by physically moving the chain one or two links left or right.

Having viewed many field service reports that's how I read it with the limited information you've provided.

Thanks for adding to my main questions!!! Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I'm not fully aware of how to adjust the timing chain or its cover but that is what I was trying to get at. Basically, the dealership is claiming that my tuner messed around with the timing chain. I plan on trying to get pictures like others have recommended in this post. I find it hard to believe that it was messed with.

Originally Posted by mav1178

Maybe the dealer wrote up some BS to get themselves out of it, but this could've been solved a long time ago.

I highlighted the most important part, but let me just sum it up (and correct me if I'm wrong):
• You had issues with the car
• Dealer did not document issues (according to you)
• You turbocharged your car thinking issues would go away
• You've had to remove the turbocharger to solve your initial issues that were never fixed.
• Dealer is now giving you BS to get out of this on their end.

I am definitely not a fan of the dealer, especially ones that won't listen to reason. But... why were your issues not addressed PRIOR to you modding the engine? The mere fact that they were present was a huge red flag to me.

I love modding cars as much as the next guy, but I'm not made of money (and neither are you), and issues like this just makes the car a lot more expensive to maintain over the long run (both in terms of dollars and time), and (more importantly) the manufacturer will log this in their file as another "modified car that has caused warranty issues" case, and it doesn't do the community any good.

I am not going to chime in on the actual discrepancy between what the service department claims vs what is reality (others have already said it), but this needs to be noted for future reference.

Car has problem with engine, DON'T GO MODIFYING IT AFTERWARDS.

-alex

P.S. I'm well aware of what the question is. However, the actual TSB in question, what the service department wrote up, and a bunch of other info is still missing. It's just a bunch of armchair mechanics trying to remotely diagnose an issue...

Lol, thanks. I got a small laugh out of your down to earth realistic statement, "DON"T GO MODIFYING IT AFTERWARDS."

You are right, I did modify it after I should not have. However, at that time I was pretty ignorant of the issues of this car. After bringing the car into the dealership a couple times and being told the issues were normal I chalked it up to being the high compression and engine design. Ohhhh, the mistake I made. Honestly, there's more to this problem than I am aware of. I'm putting facts and sources together as I go to build a valid assessment of what happened. Great input tho.

Originally Posted by s2d4;1399271 [MENTION=41903

shiro[/MENTION]

What issues did you have before putting the turbo on?

Mainly the chirping noise, the CEL coming on and going off, car stalled a couple of time in the rain, etc. I brought the car in and asked about the CEL. The dealership said since it isn't staying on there was no concern. They never hooked up an OBD reader to the car… Plus they said the chirping noise was a normal pump noise and part of the high compression engine design. LOL…

[dabocx]

Tough battle, may be best to just call full blown for a shortblock at this point. Im putting my pennies and tax return away for that.

Good luck with the fight

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by shiro

Mainly the chirping noise, the CEL coming on and going off, car stalled a couple of time in the rain, etc. I brought the car in and asked about the CEL. The dealership said since it isn't staying on there was no concern. They never hooked up an OBD reader to the car… Plus they said the chirping noise was a normal pump noise and part of the high compression engine design. LOL…

I am not quite sure how these are related to your issue.
Unless you are thinking that your fuel pump died?

As for the CEL, if it wasn't there when you brought it into the dealer nor can it be reproduced whilst in their possession, you'd had to try and catch it on your own then bring it to their attention.

Stalling, no idea, how did it stall? was it the rpm dropping issue? what temperature? what were you doing at the time? did you have the CEL?

[shiro]

Originally Posted by s2d4

I am not quite sure how these are related to your issue.
Unless you are thinking that your fuel pump died?

As for the CEL, if it wasn't there when you brought it into the dealer nor can it be reproduced whilst in their possession, you'd had to try and catch it on your own then bring it to their attention.

Stalling, no idea, how did it stall? was it the rpm dropping issue? what temperature? what were you doing at the time? did you have the CEL?

The chirping fuel pump is not related at all. It's just the way that batch was designed, to my knowledge. The CEL and stalling would be more connected to my current issue. Stalling only happened when I was driving the car and would take a corner really fast and tight on a rainy day and the back end would break loose. Traction and stability control were off. I believe it would offset a sensor or the engine did a misfire when I tried to accelerate in a turn. Car temp usually runs about 190-210 degrees (outside temp during this time was about 60-80). The only times I had my CEL come on was when my car did not seem to have any issues but when the issues occurred the CEL would never come one. Some of the rough idle times I had my CEL come on and that's because the engine was shaking so bad the knock sensors were going off. The dealership could not replicate. Bummer for me.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by shiro

The chirping fuel pump is not related at all. It's just the way that batch was designed, to my knowledge. The CEL and stalling would be more connected to my current issue. Stalling only happened when I was driving the car and would take a corner really fast and tight on a rainy day and the back end would break loose. Traction and stability control were off. I believe it would offset a sensor or the engine did a misfire when I tried to accelerate in a turn. Car temp usually runs about 190-210 degrees (outside temp during this time was about 60-80). The only times I had my CEL come on was when my car did not seem to have any issues but when the issues occurred the CEL would never come one. Some of the rough idle times I had my CEL come on and that's because the engine was shaking so bad the knock sensors were going off. The dealership could not replicate. Bummer for me.

So what did you mean when you said you had a case?

[Dezoris]

going to get plenty of opinions on this. but if they are blaming timing lets just say this is not the Honda days. You cant just adjust cam sprockets on these cars. The cam sprockets are completely adjust able and electronically controlled. Its also on a timing chain which no would would ever remove unless the tensioner or guide was damaged.

The truth is almost every tuner changes timing. And they almost always advance timing as much as they can because it makes more power. In your case you had mechanical problem already. we can only speculate, if it was cam related, valvetrain, injectors whatever once that turbo kit went on and that timing got advanced it just accelerated the failure.

Only the dealer will be able to tell you now what the failure is. And you are at the mercy of them being honest.

[shiro]

Originally Posted by s2d4

So what did you mean when you said you had a case?

Currently, I have a case open with corporate on this issue. If we are talking about a case in other terms then I meant I have enough data that I can compile and bring to Toyota to help leverage my engine issues. Overall, if corporate is already willing to help "compensate" some of the cost I think that is a good start and shows good faith on them. However, it took time to get to this point.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

going to get plenty of opinions on this. but if they are blaming timing lets just say this is not the Honda days. You cant just adjust cam sprockets on these cars. The cam sprockets are completely adjust able and electronically controlled. Its also on a timing chain which no would would ever remove unless the tensioner or guide was damaged.

The truth is almost every tuner changes timing. And they almost always advance timing as much as they can because it makes more power. In your case you had mechanical problem already. we can only speculate, if it was cam related, valvetrain, injectors whatever once that turbo kit went on and that timing got advanced it just accelerated the failure.

Only the dealer will be able to tell you now what the failure is. And you are at the mercy of them being honest.

You are right. Unfortunately I feel I brought my car to the wrong dealership, LoL... But, today I will be sure to give them a call and see if I can get an update. The regional manager should have been there to examine my car and make a decision on what to do next. Also, I need to get in contact with my corporate rep to verify additional courses of action.

Thanks for your information. It's good to know more about how that system works from other form members.