EcuTek Announce FT86 Retail Tuning Software

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Z0rr0

I see all these posts about unlocked maps from tuners.
It ain't going to happen. Period.

This is akin to the Cobb model of tuning. You can have a "Pro Tune" which is locked by the pro tuner. or you can have a "Race Tune" that you are able to make by downloading the free Accesstuner Race software.

It would be very difficult, IMO, to get the tuner to give you a "Race" compatible map. Some will do it, most won't

I applaud ECUTek.

It will happen if you actually go to the shop and have a custom tune done and pay them for their time appropriately. Truth is an unlocked tune means nothing to them as it is a per car setup anyway.

It will just be another revenue stream offering unlocked e-tunes etc.
It really helps to prevent open source models from hurting business even more by making ECUtek more flexible for the niche.

Smart business move really. And yeah it's expensive but if you are modifying modern cars, can't do it without tuning. Pay to play.

[jamesm]

yeah.. that old argument for locking down tunes is just bullshit. you can't have your cake and eat it too. you can't tell me that i need to pay you to tune my car custom instead of downloading an OTS map because it's better, then argue that i can't access the map i paid to have created on my behalf, bespoke to my car because then i could turn around and provide it to lots of other people, who you just finished telling me have no use for it and should pay you instead. it's doubletalk. and bullshit.

there is no reason at all why a tuner wouldn't allow their customer access to the fruit of the labor they paid for. it's the only right thing to do, and if you've nothing to hide as far as shoddy practices or anything, there is no real justification for not doing it.

[Z0rr0]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

It will happen if you actually go to the shop and have a custom tune done and pay them for their time appropriately. Truth is an unlocked tune means nothing to them as it is a per car setup anyway.

It will just be another revenue stream offering unlocked e-tunes etc.
It really helps to prevent open source models from hurting business even more by making ECUtek more flexible for the niche.

Smart business move really. And yeah it's expensive but if you are modifying modern cars, can't do it without tuning. Pay to play.

Originally Posted by jamesm

yeah.. that old argument for locking down tunes is just bullshit. you can't have your cake and eat it too. you can't tell me that i need to pay you to tune my car custom instead of downloading an OTS map because it's better, then argue that i can't access the map i paid to have created on my behalf, bespoke to my car because then i could turn around and provide it to lots of other people, who you just finished telling me have no use for it and should pay you instead. it's doubletalk. and bullshit.

there is no reason at all why a tuner wouldn't allow their customer access to the fruit of the labor they paid for. it's the only right thing to do, and if you've nothing to hide as far as shoddy practices or anything, there is no real justification for not doing it.

I'm not saying I disagree with you guys.
However, the reality of it is, with an unlocked tune the customer or other shops have been known to post it up for criticism, or steal it outright as a base map for a more inexperienced tuner to copy and call his own.

I tune both Cobb Accessport and Opensource.
I prefer Cobb, for many reasons.. one of them is protecting my work.

I'll provide an open map, no problem. It's a case-by-case basis, however.

You also have to look at it like this:
From the tuner's prospective, you provide a map to a client, they then go screw with it, blow the engine. They could easily flash back the unmodified map, call you up and blame you for the failure. Right or wrong, there will be some negative publicity and backlash for it.

For me, I'd prefer to just lock my tune and not have that kind of liability.
I have a huge investment in my shop, with tools, AWD dyno, etc. etc. There's more to protect here than just a "tune"

oh, and BTW, there is a lot more power to be had with a custom tune than an OTS tune, for a turbo Subaru at least.. you gotta figure, they have to have a tune that's good for thousands of cars. It's going to error on the conservative side.


I used to whole-heartedly agree with you, James, but having opened up shop tuning cars.. my thoughts have changed toward protecting my finances and reputation.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Z0rr0

I'm not saying I disagree with you guys.
However, the reality of it is, with an unlocked tune the customer or other shops have been known to post it up for criticism, or steal it outright as a base map for a more inexperienced tuner to copy and call his own.

I tune both Cobb Accessport and Opensource.
I prefer Cobb, for many reasons.. one of them is protecting my work.

I'll provide an open map, no problem. It's a case-by-case basis, however.

You also have to look at it like this:
From the tuner's prospective, you provide a map to a client, they then go screw with it, blow the engine. They could easily flash back the unmodified map, call you up and blame you for the failure. Right or wrong, there will be some negative publicity and backlash for it.

For me, I'd prefer to just lock my tune and not have that kind of liability.
I have a huge investment in my shop, with tools, AWD dyno, etc. etc. There's more to protect here than just a "tune"

oh, and BTW, there is a lot more power to be had with a custom tune than an OTS tune, for a turbo Subaru at least.. you gotta figure, they have to have a tune that's good for thousands of cars. It's going to error on the conservative side.


I used to whole-heartedly agree with you, James, but having opened up shop tuning cars.. my thoughts have changed toward protecting my finances and reputation.

i see your argument, but i just think the basis is invalid. you simply don't have the right to limit what your customer does with the fruit of the labor he paid you for whether you want to or not. it's just not straight business. some people go along with it, and it sells, but that doesn't make it right. you're severely limiting their future options unnecessarily. you're asking them to marry you on the first date, effectively.

i think it has a lot more to do with the first part of your argument, avoiding public dissection of the work. actually, i think that's about all that it has to do with for most tuners. the 'protection' argument just doesn't hold water. you can't protect something from the person who paid for it and a bunch of people that you claim (and we all know) it isn't useful to.

of course at the end of the day it's between you and your tuner i suppose, and everyone will handle things differently. i just wouldn't do business with one that wouldn't acknowledge my rights to the end product. but i'm a loss anyway, i'll never pay for another tune now that i know how much fun making them is .

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Z0rr0

I'm not saying I disagree with you guys.
However, the reality of it is, with an unlocked tune the customer or other shops have been known to post it up for criticism, or steal it outright as a base map for a more inexperienced tuner to copy and call his own.

I tune both Cobb Accessport and Opensource.
I prefer Cobb, for many reasons.. one of them is protecting my work.


I used to whole-heartedly agree with you, James, but having opened up shop tuning cars.. my thoughts have changed toward protecting my finances and reputation.

That's pretty much the business difficulty with of running a shop in the modern age of tuning/software.

You have to figure out how to cater or not to cater to the niche while also offering a complete OTS tune for the masses while protecting your business and the investment in time and development of your work.

Not easy.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by jamesm

i think it has a lot more to do with the first part of your argument, avoiding public dissection of the work. actually, i think that's about all that it has to do with for most tuners. the 'protection' argument just doesn't hold water. you can't protect something from the person who paid for it and a bunch of people that you claim (and we all know) it isn't useful to.

I think you are looking at it one sided. Really plenty of software work is closed source. You don't just get to look at the code just because you buy the software. Tuning depending on the package can be considered that.

The fact that the tuners have the right to lock their ROMs is good because it leaves some of the guys who have been working on this since day 1 some secret sauce.

The fact that we have an open ROM and close ROM option now solves most of it. Will this hurt master tuners profits initially, yes but they will figure out a way to offer open tunes and other options, maybe even sell training while still having the ability to lock out their higher end tunes.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by jamesm

of course at the end of the day it's between you and your tuner i suppose, and everyone will handle things differently.

This is exactly right and I guess what work you have had done to the car may also bias the decision.


My tuner sent me a text today to tell me to download the new software when it comes out I know he won't lock my tune but then he knows that I won't go and send it out to the world. I guess what I'm saying is that a good relationship has trust, and I think unlocked tunes will end up happening with those who are trusted with the fruits.

[EcuTek]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

This is exactly right and I guess what work you have had done to the car may also bias the decision.


My tuner sent me a text today to tell me to download the new software when it comes out I know he won't lock my tune but then he knows that I won't go and send it out to the world. I guess what I'm saying is that a good relationship has trust, and I think unlocked tunes will end up happening with those who are trusted with the fruits.

And that is how it should work...

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

This is exactly right and I guess what work you have had done to the car may also bias the decision.


My tuner sent me a text today to tell me to download the new software when it comes out I know he won't lock my tune but then he knows that I won't go and send it out to the world. I guess what I'm saying is that a good relationship has trust, and I think unlocked tunes will end up happening with those who are trusted with the fruits.

now what if i grow my own fruit and want to share it with the world voluntarily. is that an option? @EcuTek

this is important because in order to collaborate on complex custom map setups, we'll need to be able to share access to work on them together.

[EcuTek]

Originally Posted by Z0rr0

I'm not saying I disagree with you guys.
However, the reality of it is, with an unlocked tune the customer or other shops have been known to post it up for criticism, or steal it outright as a base map for a more inexperienced tuner to copy and call his own.

I tune both Cobb Accessport and Opensource.
I prefer Cobb, for many reasons.. one of them is protecting my work.

I'll provide an open map, no problem. It's a case-by-case basis, however.

You also have to look at it like this:
From the tuner's prospective, you provide a map to a client, they then go screw with it, blow the engine. They could easily flash back the unmodified map, call you up and blame you for the failure. Right or wrong, there will be some negative publicity and backlash for it.

For me, I'd prefer to just lock my tune and not have that kind of liability.
I have a huge investment in my shop, with tools, AWD dyno, etc. etc. There's more to protect here than just a "tune"

oh, and BTW, there is a lot more power to be had with a custom tune than an OTS tune, for a turbo Subaru at least.. you gotta figure, they have to have a tune that's good for thousands of cars. It's going to error on the conservative side.


I used to whole-heartedly agree with you, James, but having opened up shop tuning cars.. my thoughts have changed toward protecting my finances and reputation.

We all would like to think that we can work with customers who respect each other and that way trust forms and loyalty and respect follows. Lets hope you can add EcuTek to your stable. Not sure if COBB has it, but if your customer does flash back to standard after a problem they are seeking to blame you for, you can expose any foul play on EcuTek

[EcuTek]

Originally Posted by jamesm

now what if i grow my own fruit and want to share it with the world voluntarily. is that an option? @EcuTek

this is important because in order to collaborate on complex custom map setups, we'll need to be able to share access to work on them together.

We don’t have a problem with collaborating to develop the platform, however as we have said on a number of occasions in this thread, the software is offered on a fair usage policy. If we believe someone is operating on a commercial basis with the software, we will respectfully ask them to upgrade to the Commercial version.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by EcuTek

We don’t have a problem with collaborating to develop the platform, however as we have said on a number of occasions in this thread, the software is offered on a fair usage policy. If we believe someone is operating on a commercial basis with the software, we will respectfully ask them to upgrade to the Commercial version.

any interest i would have in sharing maps would be limited to collaboration between users on new features, specifically custom maps. it's awesome that you guys will be able to facilitate that, as it would be pretty much impossible otherwise. thanks!

[Deadspool]

Originally Posted by jamesm

any interest i would have in sharing maps would be limited to collaboration between users on new features, specifically custom maps. it's awesome that you guys will be able to facilitate that, as it would be pretty much impossible otherwise. thanks!

Im looking forward to finding some method of knock alert via dash light or so, when a predetermined safe knock sum is exceeded.

This would be a HUGE benefit to amateur tuners in terms of safety and rom development.

The factory boost gauge in my 2g DSM was used as a knock counter, each tick was 5 counts. and the CEL illuminated at anything over 3 counts.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Deadspool

Im looking forward to finding some method of knock alert via dash light or so, when a predetermined safe knock sum is exceeded.

This would be a HUGE benefit to amateur tuners in terms of safety and rom development.

The factory boost gauge in my 2g DSM was used as a knock counter, each tick was 5 counts. and the CEL illuminated at anything over 3 counts.

i'm hoping they'll develop a way to do something useful with this damn analog speedo. whoever's idea that was should be fired.