Contacted "Scion Customer Experience" regarding DI Seal Issue

[ayau]

Originally Posted by shellslinger

I thought this problem with the DI seals were solved with new tune (ZA1JA01G)

I don't think it has. Didn't @CSG Mike witness DI failures with the newer tune, or was that the ecutek tune?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by kALMIGHTY

Not hating on you or anything, but it kind of sounds like you have highly unreal expectations from the car, especially the first year of a brand new car with a brand new engine. You should have realized that we technically are "beta testers" for what's probably going to be an amazing platform down the road.
Just because a "large" number of HPDE twins have DI issues, doesn't mean yours will.
You can choose to drive yours like a Prius if you really want to, but ultimately that's your decision and not Scion's fault. You yourself stated that Scion has been good about warranty coverage for this issue, so what exactly are you worried about? If it breaks, they'll fix it. If it doesn't break, then great.
You're complaining about something that hasn't even affected your car yet, so I'm not surprised the Scion replied with a very generic response to your complaint.
Go out and enjoy the car like you wanted to when you first bought the car. Deal with problems when you get to them, instead of whining about and being afraid of the POSSIBILITY of things going wrong in the future.
There's a possibility of everything going wrong in the world all at once, but we don't have to live in fear of it. Enjoy your car for what it is now, not for what it might be in the future.

I can absolutely guarantee that your car suffers from the same problem. It is just a matter of time.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by ayau

Unfortunately, only a small percentage of owners will take their cars to the track and put it through that kind of abuse. I don't really see any incentives for them to "fix" this issue since this doesn't affect 99% of the owners.

Personally, I'm pretty close to selling the BRZ and buying a cheap ITR as my weekend toy. The only thing holding me back is losing 8-10k in the first year of ownership.

I've seen the DI seal failure on cars that have never seen the track now.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by shellslinger

I thought this problem with the DI seals were solved with new tune (ZA1JA01G)

We did too. Apparently it's not the case. Many members of this board have experienced it and have contacted me via PM or phone, since they do not want to publicly incriminate themselves of "abusing the car", since some of these cars are just driven fairly normally.

[AyJay]

Originally Posted by Books

What were you expecting their response to be?

O, I dunno... maybe something helpful like some good ol' fashion customer service where the CSR doesn't just try to sweep it under the rug.

Hell, maybe they even could have gone the extra mile and tell me what they plan to do to solve the problem instead of just playing dumb.

I absolutely refuse to believe that Toyota doesn't know this is a problem... especially now that we are starting to see supposed aftermarket solutions pop up like knock resistant tunes and Strengthened DI Seals.

The least they could do is acknowledge the problem, however, i'm sure that would be an admission that would open them up to a whole mess of litigation and profit loss... much easier to just sweep it under the rug, right?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by kALMIGHTY

Not hating on you or anything, but it kind of sounds like you have highly unreal expectations from the car, especially the first year of a brand new car with a brand new engine.

You're missing the point, NOBODY in their right mind bought this car within the first year and expected it to be flawless when held up to track duty (without mods of course).

The issue has been the response with many dealerships denying there is an issue and refusing warranty work due to "abuse" when that's a breach of contract: as long as the event is not competitive [timed] they must honor warranty. Hell there have been dealers just clearing codes and telling owners there was nothing wrong when there's clear evidence of the seals failing (firecracker noises, CEL codes) leaving owners in the position of doing the jobs themselves or running the car into the ground in the hopes that warranty picks it up.

It really doesn't matter if the issue is widespread or not, if people were being treated well there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage. But as always it isn't really a problem until it lands on your doorstep, thanks internet.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You're missing the point, NOBODY in their right mind bought this car within the first year and expected it to be flawless when held up to track duty (without mods of course).

considering they marketed as such, I think everybody expected the opposite

did I expect a Porsche killer? No

but I expected a car that could hold up to track abuse.. AT THE VERY LEAST AS WELL AS MY SHITTY ASS VW GOLF.. 5 years of track abuse without a single problem as a result of it? Absolutely!

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

did I expect a Porsche killer? No

but I expected a car that could hold up to track abuse.. AT THE VERY LEAST AS WELL AS MY SHITTY ASS VW GOLF.. 5 years of track abuse without a single problem as a result of it? Absolutely!

Even Porsche's have fatal flaws:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-mar-12-a.html

All you guys touting the S2000 as the model of perfection must have forgotten about the banjo bolt:
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1383...t-fixable-diy/
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/8847...-oil-sprayers/
Seems to have been about the same scale as the DI failures we're seeing.

Hell even the V6 Mustang which wins all comparisons on paper had an exploding driveshaft:
http://jalopnik.com/5869650/why-do-2...keep-exploding

I really do consider you out of your mind to compare this thing to something like a Suzuki Swift:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/12/i...ng-rental-car/

If these things were fixed simply and with a smile very few people would be pissed off, yourself excluded it seems. Note that it took Porsche over 10 years to bend to the owners will and compensate those that were screwed over.

Sports cars have problems, budget sports cars usually moreso. Of course a econo car designed to not even push the limits of what's under the hood can be beat up and down the track for hundreds of thousands of miles, start actually pushing the limits of the design and shit fails, it's a very simple equation. This weak point slipped through, shit happens, yeah it sucks and Toyobaru are doing a shit job of fixing it. Personally I'll flog my car until it fails and keep an eye on the forum for a real fix to come along.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

All you guys touting the S2000 as the model of perfection must have forgotten about the banjo bolt:
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1383...t-fixable-diy/
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/8847...-oil-sprayers/
Seems to have been about the same scale as the DI failures we're seeing.

I'd like to point out that this failure only happens when you're doing top speed runs. This failure only happens when doing extended WOT 6th gear pulls over 130 mph.

Regardless, Honda fixed it.

[7thgear]

the FRS chassis is a rip of the Impreza chassis designed in 1993

the FRS engine is a rip of the Subaru base designed in god knows whatever, their choice of hardward wasn't revolutionary, if it was up to Subaru there wouldn't even be DI, in fact, they could have put in a standard, run-of-the-mill Impreza RS engine inside of the car and no one would have been the wiser.

the car is not an engineering marvel, Subaru/Toyota have zero excuses, they fucked up, plain and simple.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'd like to point out that this failure only happens when you're doing top speed runs. This failure only happens when doing extended WOT 6th gear pulls over 130 mph.

Regardless, Honda fixed it.

It was still a failure that many suffered and had to pay for until the solution was produced. The point being this is not a unique issue to the 86 and should not have been entirely unforeseen.

Yes it's unexpected.
Yes Toyobaru are handling it very poorly so far.

I guess I don't get the outrage (aside from being screwed out of warranty work, that is undoubtedly fucked up), even the best cars have issues, it's basically fact. The longer Toyobaru wait the worse it will get, unless per their analysis it's a minor percentage of owners affected, there are people who have tracked without issue so far. It's really out of our hands if it gets fixed or not, even a billion emails and picketing and boycotts won't speed it up, as far as I can tell I'd estimate less than 500 failures worldwide out of what, 60,000 produced? You are much more in touch with the issue than I am but I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 confirmed failures in the US so far, what's your estimate?

I know you believe it will affect all cars if driven hard but the fact remains that this isn't overwhelmingly prevalent yet, claiming all cars are affected seems premature to me now. Have their been any failures in AT equipped cars?

Only time will tell if they screwed the pooch, but how is that different from any other vehicle ever produced? You don't know if it's got problems until years down the road and that's just a fact of automobiles.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

It was still a failure that many suffered and had to pay for until the solution was produced. The point being this is not a unique issue to the 86 and should not have been entirely unforeseen.

Yes it's unexpected.
Yes Toyobaru are handling it very poorly so far.

I guess I don't get the outrage (aside from being screwed out of warranty work, that is undoubtedly fucked up), even the best cars have issues, it's basically fact. The longer Toyobaru wait the worse it will get, unless per their analysis it's a minor percentage of owners affected, there are people who have tracked without issue so far. It's really out of our hands if it gets fixed or not, even a billion emails and picketing and boycotts won't speed it up, as far as I can tell I'd estimate less than 500 failures worldwide out of what, 60,000 produced? You are much more in touch with the issue than I am but I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 confirmed failures in the US so far, what's your estimate?

I know you believe it will affect all cars if driven hard but the fact remains that this isn't overwhelmingly prevalent yet, claiming all cars are affected seems premature to me now. Have their been any failures in AT equipped cars?

Only time will tell if they screwed the pooch, but how is that different from any other vehicle ever produced? You don't know if it's got problems until years down the road and that's just a fact of automobiles.

100% of the track regulars here have had the problem.

double digit figures for street-only drivers have had the problem, and that's only counting the people who have directly contact me for advice.

I'd guess it's more than 100 cars.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

100% of the track regulars here have had the problem.

double digit figures for street-only drivers have had the problem, and that's only counting the people who have directly contact me for advice.

I'd guess it's more than 100 cars.

Interesting, those numbers are new to me, I'm just basing off of this thread:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38397

Sitting at 33 votes and with the majority chiming in to be track related. Is there another source perhaps that I may have missed?

I don't distrust your statements, only that I have yet to see those kinds of numbers posted with a source aside from yourself.

Believe me, I would love for the world to bend to my will and have you meet up with some Toyobaru engineers and a fresh 86 to break in an afternoon so this can be solved.

[CSG Mike]

Wait, I lied. @robispec has not had the problem... but he is the only one I know of that hasn't. He's also been tuned since day 1, and been on E85 the majority of the time.