Still can't decide on AT or MT for your first FRS/BRZ? This may help...

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

You and Moto love the automatic so I know its gotta be a good tranny. :happy0180:

I've drawn the line on where you should decide on the MT/AT issues before in other threads now buried lol! Pretty lengthy too.
But here is the thing, the AT on this car has seen just as much development time or more than the MT, to not spoil the fun factor while adding a multi-role task to this car.


I'd break it down for you in the following checklist:

Choose Manual:


If you are a very strict track guy who has resources and wishes to play with final drive differnential gear ratios, and absolutely hate to not have a 3rd pedal to run though gears.

If you love shifting even in traffic, just to be that much proficient and aspiring to become an all-around performance driver, especially if you are new and not without the high level or history of racing cars in competition.

If you just love manual without doubts and don't even want to think about the AT
If you have driven the FRS in manual paddle and still don't like it as much.
If this is a part-time car that you have an alternate car for daily use.
If this is something you want purely as replacement of what the original AE86 had to offer in direct adherence to intrinsic nature of cars.
If you are making a race car.
If you do want to learn how to drift, or making a drift car.
If you want to learn how to clutch-kick your tail loose, and eventually breaking a tooth or two in the driveline, in doing so as an amateur and riding on so called Performance Tires.
If you are a pro-drifter who can and NEED to clutch kick to win Formula D, and sponsors are flipping the bill for broken trannies.
If you can't ever be seen with a AT among your peers.

Manual is in essence the ultimate driving experience, bar none, no argument there! IF you are so inclined to get the "BEST" of FRS!

Choose Semi-Automatic Digital Shifting AT, if you want "MOST" out of an FRS)

If you have a multi-role task for this car with commutes, and even lending the car occasionally to folks.
If you appreciate modern drivetrain that is much more sophisticated than older traditional MT.
If you want to learn how to drive exotic cars like Lamborghini or Ferrari, and even LFA's as those are now mostly e-shft cars as well.
And let me add that the FRS's AT system/software/actuation is so precise and intuitive that despite the torque converter design being very different mechanically from those of twin clutched e-Shifts on exotics, the actual driving feel and timing is very similar and quite useful in the raceway as well.
If you want to learn how to drift. (yes I said this again, because this AT in full-no-nannies mode is very much capable of sliding gracefully into corner apexes and doing donuts around cones with Torsen LSD equipped on all FRS)
If you have a dumb foot that can't seem to learn how to heel/toe under FULL braking, sliding on all fours, and during your flight to an apex (or into a wall of Turn 10 at Laguna Seca, at alarming speeds) in a MT despite your best efforts.
If you like having the third button on your center console than a blank piece of plastic by your shifter.
If you already had your share of learning to drive competitively, and you know what the heck you are doing on a racetrack.
If you don't know what the heck you are doing but you want to look better on the racetrack.
And you have the time to explain what the hell I am writing in detail here, to every damn person that asks "YOU OF ALL PEOPLE got and AUTOMATIC????" LOL!!!
__

Unlike the normal traditional AT, this one is bred of performance driving, and as such, in one of the 5 modes of programming combination of VSC, TRC and shifting, the car will become fully manual to the point where you can ride the rev-limit and destroy your engine just as in a MT. And not shift till you tell it to. It will also allow downshifting with more precision than in a manual, and with less driveline shock, which may be of benefit for those already seasoned in performance driving.

And for me, this is my first FRS, and one which I will drive EVERY DAY for daily use of all reasons I have a car for in my life to get to places. It is not my dedicated race car, which my old faithful AE86 will now be able to become because of this car's arrival. And when it is time for me to build a track dedicated FRS in the future, I will buy one in a few years, used, and out of warranty as I will hack that to my desires and really make use of the platform that is so excellent.

I don't have a need to pretend being a 1980's driver, when all modern F1 and WRC Rally cars also have no clutch pedals and relies on digital programmed brains and hydraulics to make things go faster. Especially in a car that is born in 2012.

Still, I will buy and have both eventually, as FT86 siblings are something I have been working on with the Chief Engineer Tada for the last 5 years, if very little as speaking my opinions, and having him listen, and answering questions he may have had. And as such, it is possibly the first and the last car that I had such opportunity, as a common folk...living outside of Corporate R&D labs.

This is why I chose the Automatic. It's something appropriate in 2012, and for many of us, a more advanced and versatile form of a manual transmission to allow many things without much compromise at all.

Lastly, you may have noticed that the AT has a much taller gear at 6th, and wider gaps in those gears under it. While in theory, (for the numerical stats geeks) it provides for a more ideal way to deliver power, you need to remember that closer the gears are packed, the more busy you are on the track shifting through them.

I found the MT almost challengingly busy on the raceway, and unless I have driven this thing for weeks, my body's natural muscle memory lacking was a handicap for the one day I only had on the track. This explains why most journalists at the event were also posting similar or faster laps with the paddle shift mode of the AT. And I'm no foreigner to MT shifting on the track, having won a few shiny sticks on wood in SCCA with many cars.

With this smart AT, one can concentrate on the delicate balancing of the contact patch on this very peaky and ultra responsive car if you can let the transmission do its thing, as long as the AT is doing it well enough according to your intuitive timing on the track. And this one does.

The ratio from 1-4th are pretty close to the MT, and if you know racing on tracks with 200hp lightweight cars, 1-4th are the only gears you'd use for racetracks anyway, outside of very big tracks like Laguna Seca or Super Speedway based infields. So argument about 5th and 6th being away from 4th is sort of a moot point for most enthusiasts as well. At medium speed Spring Mountain Racepark, where fastest trap in the straight was about 104mph, it was still in the middle of 4th gear and only for 2-3 seconds before dropping to 3rd again. Get what I mean?

Also on the more mundane side of the deal, the ultra tall 6th gear proved to be very quiet on the highway, revving almost 800rpm less in cruise than in the MT at 85mph (the usual Interstate rural highway speeds in the USA). And fuel consumption also will reflect this as well.

So there you have it. You can perhaps print this out and keep it in the car, if you choose what I call this a "SPORTS SMART Semi-AUTO" in case you run into a muscle head who gives you crap about that PRND-M on your center console.

I sincerely hope that this can help your decision-making, and help you head over to the Scion dealership faster, so that the precious 1500 or so units allocated for each month of BRZ/FRS for the US of A, will end up in your garage, and you spend more time on the road with a smile on your face, than lurking here on the forums wondering what it is like...

Whatever you choose, do it, as once the FRS hits TV commercials and are seen on the road, your order will be backed up by several months, I suspect. In Japan, the wait-list is now November as of May, and growing, if that's any hint that you should really hurry.

[WolfpackS2k]

I appreciate you breaking it down for people, but as someone who has DD'd a manual transmission car for the last 13 years in NYC and NC I have to say that most of your "reasons to get the AT" are flat out wrong.

I'm sorry but this car is borderline underpowered as it is. Equipping the car with an automatic transmission is only going to sap away more power from the engine and making matters even worse the AT has taller gearing. The taller gearing alone should tell you that Toyota designed the AT for people with lesser sporting intentions.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I appreciate you breaking it down for people, but as someone who has DD'd a manual transmission car for the last 13 years in NYC and NC I have to say that most of your "reasons to get the AT" are flat out wrong.

I'm sorry but this car is borderline underpowered as it is. Equipping the car with an automatic transmission is only going to sap away more power from the engine and making matters even worse the AT has taller gearing. The taller gearing alone should tell you that Toyota designed the AT for people with lesser sporting intentions.

Which means simply, you should get a manual, I never said there is anything wrong with that either.
Underpowered is all relative as I grew up with 96hp Honda Civic in 1985, and 110hp AE86. So 197 in this car is plenty for me to have plenty of fun, as I my first FRS of many in the future is not tied to the role of competition use. Time wasted in shifting also suck power too in relating to the clock spinning against your skills in a modern race environment, and a close ratio box kept me busy enough that with 30 minutes to get accustomed to the car, I wasn't going faster in by the time I reached the start/finish line.
But again, not convincing you to get a AT, here. Just guiding some folks who are caught in making up their minds. I know the benefits of both. I raced for the last 20 years on every competition from amateur drift events to SCCA Nationals.

Yes, with the AT being so tailored to sports use ever more than before for a mere $25,000 car, the MT was allowed to be tuned much more to the enthusiasts needs, dedicated to the track, I am merely saying that for such role, of course the gears are nicely packed, but for real competition, the tightly packed gears need also be optimized at the differential final drive to suit the track and competition. THat's the nice part about the manual, that is hard-core ready. But as such, its a bit hard for a guy who isn't spending 30 days a week on the raceway. If the compomises made here seems dumb to you, then that's the extent of your tolerances and it's your choice. AT's gears are very appropriate and offers the best compromises for my needs as a part time Sunday track car, and a commuter, with just enough dab of sports to keep me entertained, unlike an old lazy slushbox offered for most other cars.

And you are exactly right, in saying "less sporting roles" but the entire FRS is pretty sporting in both forms, and MT choice is even more a race-ready platform and should cater to you well. For some, the MT might be a little TOO competition oriented if it was to be put in roles other than smoking laps or tires on part of its life as an automobile for getting around as well. As for those folks, I think the FRS's AT has hit the right mark on a balance that can be enjoyed.

It's a difference between MOST(AT) and BEST(MT) is the best way I can put it, and this ONLY applies to the FRS/BRZ's AT.
AT being the better car for MOST of what you do.
MT being the better car for BEST of why you have a sports car.

[MTeator]

After driving this car for a day with a manual, and while fun, I can very much see your points on the automatic. I'm questioning if I should have gotten the auto. Maybe some of that is the frustration of shifting below 4,000 rpm for the time being.

My question is, with the AT, if you shift all the way up to 6th while going say 20mph, will it do the shifts? With my IS350 the paddle shifters were more like a "top gear" selector for the AT, and didn't always upshift.

[ESBjiujitsu]

great post! I also think aftermarket support of the auto trans could also shift people one direction or the other....ie me if they come out with improvements that even better connect the driver to the transmission then that may bridge that gap.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by MTeator

After driving this car for a day with a manual, and while fun, I can very much see your points on the automatic. I'm questioning if I should have gotten the auto. Maybe some of that is the frustration of shifting below 4,000 rpm for the time being.

My question is, with the AT, if you shift all the way up to 6th while going say 20mph, will it do the shifts? With my IS350 the paddle shifters were more like a "top gear" selector for the AT, and didn't always upshift.

The FRS's AT will let you shift up to a point where it can operate without under-revving, just as you would normally not use a 6th gear at 20mph. And it is pretty liberal about letting you choose the wrong gear for the task as well if you chose to DO so. Just like a MANUAL. Yes.

But I don't think you should ever regret buying a MT, as I think the 6MT is a really sweet box on this car.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by ESBjiujitsu

great post! I also think aftermarket support of the auto trans could also shift people one direction or the other....ie me if they come out with improvements that even better connect the driver to the transmission then that may bridge that gap.

Humm, shifting is rather satisfactorily fast, on this car, and pretty precise and predictable as to when it occurs after you flip the paddle or stick, either direction up and down. Perhaps aftermarket support can add a feature like in the LFA, where shift response, and harshness/speed of actuation, can be adjusted to tailor it even more, that would actually be pretty cool.

[ngabdala]

Get the manual transmission. Saying manual transmission is bad for traffic is like saying you can't drink a cup of coffee with a manual.

[ESBjiujitsu]

that would be an amazing feature! Also upgraded anchor points for more direct feel when shifting, also larger/lighter paddles, also another adjustment point could be the amount of rpms it rev matches . Could make the car very aggressive then when needed, allowing the auto to be even more versatile. I have never been an auto fan until this car so im hoping the auto does get some special love, but i have never owned an auto car so it will be an interesting internal battle lol

[SUB-FT86]

I actually think Moto isn't trying to come off like "choose auto only". His post is so in the middle(level-headed) as he has driven both on a track. It isn't like he is saying the manual sucks. Jeez

[Moto-P]

I've driven a Murcielago eShift and LFA too in traffic and track, and you know, both of those cars were fun and capable despite it being a paddler. And FRS does have feeling and precision as well as delivery closer to those boxes in use, than most others based on a slouchy torque converter based paddle like those on the 350Z and IS350. Despite it being yes, a torque converter based. Why not a twin-clutch eshift on the FRS? I would rather think really expensive maintenance has something to do with that... But yeah this is as close as you can get to one, and is catered much more for driver choices of gears than in the past paddle shift AT's from Toyota.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I actually think Moto isn't trying to come off like "choose auto only". His post is so in the middle(level-headed) as he has driven both on a track. It isn't like he is saying the manual sucks. Jeez

Being objective here, with a bit of subjective flavor tossed in either direction. But yes I can TOTALLY understand the feeling of NOT accepting AT for any car, as I am still so very much so for most other AT's and wasn't fond of toque converter based AT's till I lapped the FRS's unit on the racetrack and autocross for a full 2 days. In fact, I had my MANUAL on order adamantly, till I dove both, ON THE RACEWAY, before I made my choice to go with the paddle AT FRS.

I'm just trying to enlighten folks that for the FRS, the choice isn't limited and the AT isn't much of a compromise as much as MT, ironically, might be for some.

[raphymartinez]

Originally Posted by Moto-P

Humm, shifting is rather satisfactorily fast, on this car, and pretty precise and predictable as to when it occurs after you flip the paddle or stick, either direction up and down. Perhaps aftermarket support can add a feature like in the LFA, where shift response, and harshness/speed of actuation, can be adjusted to tailor it even more, that would actually be pretty cool.

I was able to "drive" an auto this past wednesday (i say "drive" because it was just a quick up the street run that was probably less than a mile total) and I liked how fast it shifts but would LOVE more feel in the shifts. I guess it's too smooth?
I really enjoyed how my GTI with DSG felt when shifting and even though I understand this one is more of a traditional AT with torque converter it would be nice if they could emulate that feel in the FR-S' AT with some sort of software tweak.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by raphymartinez

I was able to "drive" an auto this past wednesday (i say "drive" because it was just a quick up the street run that was probably less than a mile total) and I liked how fast it shifts but would LOVE more feel in the shifts. I guess it's too smooth?
I really enjoyed how my GTI with DSG felt when shifting and even though I understand this one is more of a traditional AT with torque converter it would be nice if they could emulate that feel in the FR-S' AT with some sort of software tweak.

Your thoughts are right on the money. For actual lap times it may not matter much as long as power delivery is there and smoother the better even if you had a manual to put it down on the ground without bugging the contact patch. But yeah, as for that feeling of punchy nudge on the hips, we still need a manual, good-ol-fashion left foot pedal to slam that gear-train for the aesthetics of it! Can't beat the thrill there!