[ZDan]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

BMW are excellent track cars, you just don't consider them as such.

Yes, the 1- and 3-series are good track cars. But 95% of BMW trackaholics would recommend an E36 over an E46 or E90/E92 for a track car. Lighter-weight, more reliable, much cheaper to operate.

You can't sit there and tell me that you can put the words luxury, lightweight, and class leading five star safety in the same sentence. Go ahead, I dare you.

Not saying that at all. I'm suggesting that it would be GREAT if they would produce a smaller, lighter-weight, *less* luxury oriented line. The 1-series is way too close to the 3 in terms of size/weight/price. And *in my opinion* the 3 has gained far too much in terms of size/weight already.

Why would you need one in the non-M models when they aren't tailored towards a harsher riding sporty driving feel.

My point was that they used to cater more to true enthusiasts, offering lsd in every model. Few can afford M-cars, it'd be great if you could buy a 128i with lsd.

You're out of your mind. Period.

OK, overstatement on my part. But like I mentioned above, the E36 is greatly preferred by most reasonable BMW trackhounds over later models for a track car.

You're playing two arguements now. So you're saying the current M3's aren't good track cars but they put up good numbers on the track .

Do you track your car(s) often? At all?
That might explain why you wouldn't understand how a Miata makes for a FANTASTIC track car, but a MUCH faster E90/E92, not so much...

Even the RICH BMW guys (18-wheeler shows up with car) I know prefer the E36 over later models for a track car.

Smalelr light-weight cars aren't luxurious, which is what the BMW name stands for. Luxury, Performance, and Prestige.

They've build smaller more spartan cars before. A modern 2002 would be a brilliant thing, IMO.

Guts =/= Intelligence. Maybe you forgot that Mini = BMW.

I didn't "forget" that at all, my reference to the Mini in a previous post was meant to emphasize the point that BMW *can* build small, lightweight cars, and that it wouldn't be a stretch for them to essentially do a rwd Mini.

Maybe you also forgot BMW is a highline auto, they don't DO simple. A simple car with a BMW logo on the front would hurt the brand name.

No it would not. Not any more than the Bugatti Type 35 hurt the Royale. Or the 2002 hurt the 3.0 CS. Or the Cobalt hurt the Corvette.

Automakers too often fret about this, IMO overly so. I mean, the fantastic an beautiful 206 and 246 Dinos didn't get Ferrari badges, but they are LOVED by most Ferrari enthusiasts as much as or more than the bigger contemporary V12 cars.

There can be elegance in simplicity, and BMW is fully capable of doing it while *enhancing* rather than tarnishing its image.

It doesn't have a thing to do with guts but rather public perception. In what universe did 3300lb's become considered "boat" worthy? IMO 3300lbs that includes luxury, safety, enough computers to make a man from the 70's weep tears of blood, AND superb handling with more than reasonable horsepower is MORE than a compromise.

The BMW enthusiasts *I* know would be THRILLED for them to produce something smaller, lighter, and way less luxury-oriented.

This is why you don't work in sales. You've such a narrow perception of what the automotive world should be like

Not at all. Any automaker would do well to have a diverse range that appeals to a broad spectrum.

that were you ever to run the R&D side of an automotive company you'd be selling about as much cars as Lotus.

You have no idea...

*ALL* I'm suggesting is that there *is* a market for smaller/lighter-weight rwd sports/sporty cars, and that, in my OPINION, it wouldn't be a bad idea for BMW to tap into it. They've been there before and done very well!

It was VERY NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did.

I don't think it was. Many BMW enthusiasts agree.

People that drive BMW's like to feel comfortable in their cars, people that drive BMW's like to have storage space in their cars, people in BMW's want cars with seats that grab you with lumbar support that turns with you and allows a hightened sense of confidence while cornering, people that drive BMW's like their I-Drive knob and central display, people that drive BMW's like their steering wheels heated and their backs massaged while they drive, people that drive BMW's like their dashboards NOT made of plastic, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT PURCHASE/LEASE BMW'S LIKE LUXURY AND YOU CAN'T FIT LUXURY AND LIGHTWEIGHT IN THE SAME SENTENCE.

Of *course* "people that drive [current] BMW's" are pretty happy with what BMW's have become! Your argument is pretty much "people who like this kind of thing will find that this is the kind of thing they like."

That doesn't mean that there isn't a market for a modern 2002.

Actually, yes you can; you'll just be paying an arm and a soul for a car made entirely of carbon fibre.

Trying to "add on" light weight after the fact is a costly and mostly futile effort. Much better to design it in from the get-go.

And looks at the specs for the e30, now look at the specs for the e92 or the e46. Clearly the added weight isn't negatively effecting the vehicles.

Driving an E30 is a very different experience from driving an E92 or E46. There's more to driving enjoyment than "specs".

If you want to play the "time period doesn't matter" game, then we'll play. An e92 would smack an e30 all around a track regardless of how an e30 feels. See how stupid that was?

There's a LOT more to driving enjoyment than track times. A 747 is a helluva lot faster than a Pitt's Special....

If one were going for track times, an E92 wouldn't be the best way to spend $62k+, anyway...

Now tell me how the size and weight of a vehicle produce two decades ago is supposed to have any bearing on a vehicle produced in the present. Must be all those computers and safety equipment that they chose not to put in back in the late 80's (/sarcasm).

Utter b.s. Modern materials, analysis techniques, manufacturing techniques allow you to hold the line on weight while meeting more stringent safety requirements and adding in "all those computers" (which are not terribly heavy). *If the will is there*. For BMW, the will wasn't there, and the urge to build ever-larger more massive luxury vehicles was.

A modern Corvette weighs pretty much exactly what a Corvette from 1968, 1988, 1998, 2008 weighed. While being at pretty much exactly the same place in relative price and performance.

A 2012 FR-S/BRZ weighs pretty much exactly what a 1989-1991 S13 240SX weighs, likewise as the same relative price and performance points.

If they *wanted* to, BMW *could* build a modern rwd car in the 2800-3200 lb. range, at the same relative price points (or cheaper even) than the E30.

BMW brought back Mini. How much more recognition do you need?

Wrong wheel drive..

They AREN'T going to put their emblem on a minimalist vehicle.

I know they aren't. But they should...

The $$$ that goes into the R&D for a niche performance vehicle that won't sell a large number of units per year would do nothing but create an intentional fiscal hemorrhage. Why would anyone with even half a brain do that to their own company?

Ask Toyota/Subaru.

Cheap isn't BMW's concern, that's why they're a highline auto and Toyota isn't. That's what toyota has Lexus for, and you let me know when Toyota creates a Lexus version of the FRS for an "affordable" price.

Beside the point. Toyota builds the FRS (w/ Subaru), they also build the LFA.

It'd be fine w/ me if BMW made a "sub" brand, but I don't think they would need to or should to do a modern 2002 or E30.

"Here's hoping a blue collar minimalist sports car has any bearing on highline auto manufactuers whose main concern is luxury/performance not simplistic low cost performance."
You're asking for 90 degree weather with a bit of snow.

Not at all. I just think it'd be pretty cool if BMW got back into the business of building cool small lightweight sporty rwd cars in addition to the fleet of barges.

That's all...