[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by gtslow

I wanted to respond to this post, because completely coincidentally I shared the video with a group of my local "86" enthusiasts. Their reaction was entirely negative to this video, and I think I can understand why. To a lot of people, this is their first major car purchase. For one reason or another, they are fans of this car and when you care about something a lot, it is extremely easy to tear down someone who is "attacking" something that is so close to your heart. I personally consider myself a car enthusiast first, and I currently enjoy owning an FR-S.

I find myself thinking a lot of the same thoughts as @Dezoris. Such questions as why throw $20k at a $25k car when I could buy a gently used C6 Z-06, Cayman S, Elise, E92 M3 etc. At the end of the day, I decided I would hold off on doing any sort of FI on this car until it is paid off. My reasoning behind that is because by then I know that I have given the platform time to mature, and that I haven't gotten my latest case of car ADD and moved on.

There are tons of different experiences and I think as informed enthusiasts it is important to read and think critically when we make purchases. Whether we plan to do the work ourselves or have a reputable shop do the work you have to come back and ask the question "what are my goals?". If you walk into an FR-S or a BRZ expecting to add FI, wheels, suspension and good tires then don't be surprised if you have surpassed the all-in cost of cars that will still be faster, more reliable, handle better, and still retain their factory warranty. That is the insane truth of modifying a late model car.
@Dezoris has shared a ton of great information with this community, and he doesn't have anything to gain from it except for maybe some small kickbacks from youtube advertisements. Think about it, if owners like him weren't excited about the car and throwing money at it right after release, the aftermarket for this car might look something like that of Genesis Coupe. Sure some of these guys get burnt out but if no one bought the car the first year and modded it we wouldn't be where we are today.

You are right about the psychology of owners, namely many of the younger ones who have an emotional attachment to it, first car/dream car whatever it maybe. I have talked to plenty of these guys in person who have asked me why I owned a car I trolled so much?

And I always said the same thing, I liked the car enough to buy it and spend tons of money and time on. But I don't tie my vehicle selection to my own sense of self, nor is it a reflection of me. It's a product to me and a tool to enjoy my hobby.

But thats the power of branding, marketing and consumerism. For many it's more than just buying something, it becomes a lifestyle statement.
So I get that people take this all personal when it's not.

The videos always took a real world approach. We always acknowledged our own screw ups, like the Ohlins bushing spacers and plenty of other things. We are far from noobs but plenty of the problems made us feel that way. And for so many products that are "marketed" as plug and play, sorted and "engineered" to a high level were flawed.

Ok yeah we are jaded but we are not 20 years old anymore and know Car Santa is not real, but we still love driving.

And yes we never sold anything, branded anything or made a dime from anyone from these projects. That includes paying for EVERY single part on the car. No free-bees.

What we make off youtube ads would barely paid for the gas in both our cars for the month. Just car guys, doing shit on the side.

Originally Posted by BRZSS

Aka, You have a valid point and I don't have a comeback for it.



You don't have as many posts as me so your points are invalid, go get youtube famous then you'll be relevant? Is that what your saying here?

Sorry didn't know I had to bow down to a higher post count and a youtube channel.

If that's the best you can respond with it, only proves you have no valid arguments against what I've already said.

You bought an modded a car you had NO BUSINESS getting involved in. Because you weren't willing to take the risks that a new platform brings and it burned you out when the problems piled up. Had you waited, these problems would of been identified by others and you could better plan a build knowing them in advance.

That's it.
Again, not down talking your contributions. If people like you didn't rush in and find the landmines first, the platform wouldn't grow nearly as fast. But if you want to run head first into an unknown potential mine field. Don't be surprised when you blow your legs off. And then bitch about it afterwards.

And yes I do own an 86. All though that's entirely irrelevant to the point here and doesn't somehow excuse your shortcomings.


@gtslow , Your thoughts are valid. The difference between you and @Dezoris is you're thinking them now, not after. The choice to mod a vehicle is not for everyone. We mod cars as statements of ourselves. What we like, what we want. Sure you can save an extra 20k and go get a Corvette. You could save 40k more and get a Viper too. You get a 86 because thats the car "you" want. It speaks to you for some reason. You may want more performance out of it. You might instead want looks and style. It's your car. At the end of the day drive it for yourself and invest in it what your willing to. Don't buy a car thinking you'll make it more like something else though. All that means is you can't afford the other thing and that thing is what you really want instead. @Dezoris bought this car with the idea he was going to turn it into something he desired more. He is the biggest example of Buyers Remorse I've ever seen.

Again, research, study. Learn. Make well informed decisions before jumping on something. Not buying a brand new car that's never been tested or proven yet.

I never had buyers remorse, I was just never emotionally attached to the car. Just coming off a string of several sports cars, I could not believe how over hyped it was. It is and was about the only attainable entry level RWD sporty car that had potential to be much more.

The biggest disappointment was they just could have done so much more with it but left that to the aftermarket and everyone knows that.
So we said ok, lets take the bait and we wanted to see how much the aftermarket could do. And out of any car (Subaru WRX/STI Aside) it has one of the most flooded aftermarkets of recent memory. That should mean there are good options to finish off the car where Toyota stopped.

That was the point of the build. I said this before in some cases the car was a success. The aftermarket transformed it from sheep to something that could impress those who drove more legit sports cars.

BUT, it's not without major gotchas and that was what we tried to share.
Tuning, DI issues, Oil Temp/Pressures research, alignment, brakes etc.

What have you shared? That's the question and the answer is...

People can take the info and wipe their ass with it, it's not about right or wrong it's data that you were not getting from the so called vendors who were trying to sell go fast parts. So hopefully others will continue to share the good and bad going forward.

Originally Posted by FRSBRZGT86FAN

Here's how you can safely run FI:

Only get either edelbrock, innovate, jackson racing supercharger if you're going for that, and make sure you have a good local ecutek tuner they will fix you're issues in a heartbeat after several pulls and dyno runs instead of through the internet. The Vortech probably still has or doesn't have the issues he mentioned.

I lost faith in many of the tuners after talking to them after track testing. I would absolutely only do on site tuning, but I would also REQUIRE them to tune for oil pressure/temp adjustments at the higher RPM as this car is pushed. No point in going into it anymore but, plenty of these guys make money off volume sales on street tunes. If you plan on hitting a track or pushing the car these "street tunes" don't account for plenty of the potential issues you will see. That was something they were/are not very open about. Same goes for Vortech they were good at giving non-answers. (Well should be good for track, should be ok down to x Temperature but we don't support it)

Originally Posted by BRZSS

Didn't insult anyone who bought the car at launch, just him.
I insulted him for buying it at launch because he's complaining after the fact about how this car is and I quote "sheep in wolf's clothing." then laments all the bad with the car from his experience. As if he's surprised that a first model car might have issues that need to be sorted out.

Anyone else who bough the car at launch bought it because that's what they wanted. And if problems come up they know it was the risk they took on a new platform. Not faulting them for wanting what they wanted. Just faulting him for buying something and then acting surprised it didn't come out rainbows and butterflies as if such a possibility couldn't have happened.

Also sorry, didn't know post count was an end all be all. God forbid the idea someone could lurk on a forum with out having an account for a long period of time. I'll go run and make a couple hundred posts in the meme thread and come back. We'll all be good cuz my post count will be up right?

Anyways I've said my pieces.
I'm sure plenty of people have had their entertainment

Part of early adoption is also product certification for the brand. I wanted to buy this car to say: "I support the direction of Toyota/Sub for making a drivers car, even if it is fu*ked up here is my money."

Many of us when we were younger sat back and did the research before we bought a car from past owners because we wanted to make a safe decision. I did that on every car I bought, without those early owners manufacturers would have no room to improve and new owners would not have data. This car many wanted to be that first batch, I was one of them, and wanted to give back anything for all the times others helped me. I have had my chance to work directly with manufacturers product planners this past 5 years and let me tell you, they want and need to hear the bad and believe it or not some brands use it, some don't.

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

This is a problem I have, the vortech kit (installed it years ago so my memory might be a little faded) does not requre excessive hacking up of your car. You are putting a FMIC on a car that did not come with one from the factory, you will need to cut things like plastic splash guards to run the piping. Yes, there is a little aluminum nipple you have to file down for 15 seconds, and a plastic tab on the back of the headlight that gets in the way of the IC piping, but all in all minor modifications that are outlined in the manual that you can read before purchasing the system.

Like I said earlier, while watching the install video some things resonated with me, but I guess more in the way that Jeremy Clarkson from topgear would explain why he hates the Morris Marina or a Prius

Yes, there was a charge tube redesign because people wouldn't check their clearances and have belt rub on the charge pipe... now there is a nice dimple for clearance so even Ray Charles could install without interference. The original belt sizes have been revised since launch, as the first kits called for a slightly too tight/loose belt that could result in failure. There is more, like them revising the compressor that originally came in the first kits because of lackluster power.....

I really thought the install was one of the easiest that I've done on a non factory turbo/SC car. Little tricks you learn from experience really help out, but that in pretty much anything. Its easier to pre-drill the crash beam than to use small self-tapping screws to try to mount the bracket. Just.... things you pick up from years of working on cars.

Maybe I am the only one who didn't have a real problem with the kit after the belt sizing/pulley swap, but I still drive it every day and just... enjoy it.
Most of the time I forget I even have it installed, which is a GOOD THING.

Two people having a different experience because they came from different backgrounds/skill levels/expectations.... crazy idea right?

I don't even know where I am going with this, but I have to take a crap before work so I'm going to stop now. Not trying to say anyone is really wrong, just sharing some opinion on someone else's opinion of someone else's opinion.

Yes and many others had virtually no issues, it's a matter of experience level and overall usage case. I know you had a big project car before the FRS so you were used to plenty of issues. Turbo right?

I had more issues with fitment because we tracked the car. Things move, shift and are exposed to more extremes. I also very anal about not having issues on a track so fitment was huge for me.

I also require documentation to be near perfect, if you can't provide high detail documentation how can people be sure your design, manufacturing and engineering inst as flighty.

But to your point, I never had a failure with the kit, but constantly had to watch it monitor, and adjust. Without that I'd probably have burnt bearings in the unit, engine problems or worse.

Originally Posted by Si_Chris

I think your interpretation of the video @Dezoris made might be coming from a different perspective than what he is trying to point out, which is fine.

To me, I interpreted it as issues coming up as a result of modding cars in general. In @Dezoris case, it just happened to be an 86. What if he right now decided to buy a new model year car like the Miata ND platform and decided to go FI right off the bat and ran into a whole slew of issues similar to what he did with the 86? Issues mainly due to lack of R&D with aftermarket FI kits like the Vortech kit that seemed to be rushed to the aftermarket?

Of course, things can go differently with a Miata ND, but modding a car with aftermarket parts like the Vortech kit that was literally a prototype on the 86, which was also literally a new platform too at the time, you're putting two unknowns together. What do you expect? No issues? @Dezoris video was merely pointing out the issues of working on a new platform and what he has experienced of being an early adopter of aftermarket FI, and the issues that stem from it (quality, fitment, lack of aftermarket support with no solid tuning solutions).

Being a daily driver for @Dezoris, it was like driving a science experiment carrying a laptop for data logging everywhere. At that point, OEM reliability has been long gone when you have to commute to work, run errands, or take a road trip. Any car you mod will never be reliable as OEM, let alone adding FI on a new platform and expect it to be reliable.

So what do you do? It depends on your interest and motivation. For most, modding cars is an addition and they become money pits. When it becomes a headache, you realize there are more important things in life you can spend your money on.

So what you do you? @Dezoris could have spent even more money on a new blower set up. He could have spent more money on a more reliable tuning solution. He could have reversed everything back to stock, spend time dealing with parting out the Vortech kit and other mods done to the car (which is time consuming and a headache as well). Or he could have just cut his losses and sell the car as is, which is what he did, and that was the most cost effective way out in a situation like this in my opinion.

This is about exactly how it is. Near the end we were gonna swap to a JRSC. But why? So I could start all over with tuning, oil cooler, still chasing oil pressures and temps in winter? (Excluding time and labor)
The science project has already been done.

We accomplished all we needed to. It was a great journey good and bad and yes it shows some of the real world about modding your car no matter the platform.

As for the ND, we will likely have one and videos on it but you can be sure I won't be an early adopter of boosting a 13:1 motor.