Thread: BRZ vs E46 M3
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:24 PM   #26
SVTSHC
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post
"Bred" for competition? Not really. By and large they are luxury cars that put up stellar performance numbers, but they are further and further removed from being good track cars.
BMW are excellent track cars, you just don't consider them as such. All the numbers and proof are there to support that claim. What makes them even better is they're excellent cars that perform well, allow the driver to feel nothing short of confident going into or exiting a corner / driving at high speeds and they offer a comfortable amount of luxury. You can't sit there and tell me that you can put the words luxury, lightweight, and class leading five star safety in the same sentence. Go ahead, I dare you.

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You can't even get a limited slip in a non-M BMW any more. Way back when you could get a clutch-type lsd in the lowliest 318i!
Why would you need one in the non-M models when they aren't tailored towards a harsher riding sporty driving feel.

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The E36 is really the last good BMW track car, IMO.
You're out of your mind. Period.

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Yeah, they put up good numbers. But 99% of the time on the street (unless your an ass), you're not going to be driving in any kind of way where you can appreciate the ultimate performance capability. Smaller lighter-weight cars just feel more fun *all* the time.
You're playing two arguements now. So you're saying the current M3's aren't good track cars but they put up good numbers on the track . Smalelr light-weight cars aren't luxurious, which is what the BMW name stands for. Luxury, Performance, and Prestige.

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Not as much as economy/practicality does. Unfortunately BMW doesn't have the guts to do another 2002 type car.

IMO they could expand their market quite a bit if they'd simply do a car like the Mini, but rwd. Simple, small, lightweight, affordable, FUN. They've grown far too comfortable building high-$$$ luxury sedans and SUVs. Even the 1-series is a 3300 lb. boat!
Guts =/= Intelligence. Maybe you forgot that Mini = BMW. Maybe you also forgot BMW is a highline auto, they don't DO simple. A simple car with a BMW logo on the front would hurt the brand name. It doesn't have a thing to do with guts but rather public perception. In what universe did 3300lb's become considered "boat" worthy? IMO 3300lbs that includes luxury, safety, enough computers to make a man from the 70's weep tears of blood, AND superb handling with more than reasonable horsepower is MORE than a compromise.

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I don't think that they'd necessarily lose sales by doing something similar to the E30 M3 or FR-S/BRZ. It was not NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did, it could have continued to add performance without adding so much weight, power, and cost. They *chose* to evolve it in the superluxocar direction.
It is entirely possible that they *could* be selling a lot more smaller/lighter/cheaper cars than they are selling 3700 lb. 414hp M3s. They simply chose to go the maximalist luxoboat route.
This is why you don't work in sales. You've such a narrow perception of what the automotive world should be like that were you ever to run the R&D side of an automotive company you'd be selling about as much cars as Lotus. You're mentality is more suited for niche brand marketing, and niche brand franchises are often owned by larger general companies because they don't offer enough to stand on their own two feet.
It was VERY NECESSARY for the M3 to evolve the way it did. People that drive BMW's like to feel comfortable in their cars, people that drive BMW's like to have storage space in their cars, people in BMW's want cars with seats that grab you with lumbar support that turns with you and allows a hightened sense of confidence while cornering, people that drive BMW's like their I-Drive knob and central display, people that drive BMW's like their steering wheels heated and their backs massaged while they drive, people that drive BMW's like their dashboards NOT made of plastic, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THAT PURCHASE/LEASE BMW'S LIKE LUXURY AND YOU CAN'T FIT LUXURY AND LIGHTWEIGHT IN THE SAME SENTENCE. Actually, yes you can; you'll just be paying an arm and a soul for a car made entirely of carbon fibre.

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I've driven my share, too. The bigger/heavier cars *always* feel bigger and heavier, and not at all like the E30.
And looks at the specs for the e30, now look at the specs for the e92 or the e46. Clearly the added weight isn't negatively effecting the vehicles. If you want to play the "time period doesn't matter" game, then we'll play. An e92 would smack an e30 all around a track regardless of how an e30 feels. See how stupid that was? Now tell me how the size and weight of a vehicle produce two decades ago is supposed to have any bearing on a vehicle produced in the present. Must be all those computers and safety equipment that they chose not to put in back in the late 80's (/sarcasm).


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Of course manufacturers must do their best to serve up what the public wants. But the smaller/lighter-weight performance segment has been all but ignored save for the Miata, and I think that a LOT of opportunites to sell cars have been MISSED.
BMW brought back Mini. How much more recognition do you need? They AREN'T going to put their emblem on a minimalist vehicle. The $$$ that goes into the R&D for a niche performance vehicle that won't sell a large number of units per year would do nothing but create an intentional fiscal hemorrhage. Why would anyone with even half a brain do that to their own company?

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BMW *could* have built a much smaller, lighter-weight car with the same power/weight as the current M3. Such a car would have given the same real-world and track performance with a smaller, less powerful engine, smaller tires, smaller wheels, smaller brakes. I would be *cheaper*, and they would most likely sell a ton of them.
Cheap isn't BMW's concern, that's why they're a highline auto and Toyota isn't. That's what toyota has Lexus for, and you let me know when Toyota creates a Lexus version of the FRS for an "affordable" price.

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Here's hoping the FR-S/BRZ sell a ton and wake BMW and other manufacturers up to the idea of performance and driving enjoyment through minimalism rather than always "more more more".
"Here's hoping a blue collar minimalist sports car has any bearing on highline auto manufactuers whose main concern is luxury/performance not simplistic low cost performance."
You're asking for 90 degree weather with a bit of snow.
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