Gearbox: Cable Link or Mechanical Link?
 

Now that the cars are out in the hands of retail buyers, do we now know for certain whether the gearbox has a cable linkage or a mechanical linkage or something else?

I haven't seen anyone post on this. In fact, I haven't noticed a lot of comments regarding the MT gearbox.


Thanks. :happy0180:

it's mechanical

@JP: Did you drive one? How does it feel?

Very notchy. When you get it into gear, you definitely feel it.

Mechanical link > cable link.

Though a lot of people used to cable linkages in their economy cars will probably complain about feeling the synchros mesh and the engine vibration through the stick. *sigh*

I keep hearing that the gearbox is notchy. Even the magazines report this. Hmm. I wonder how this will go. Will Toyota-Subaru make improvements as the car evolves from one model year to the next . . . ?

Don't see why they should. It doesn't interfere with shifting. As it is, it's only notchy when cold, and even then its only a slight roughness between gears. *shrug* I don't have an issue with it. I'd rather feel more from the transmission than less.

I think it's mechanical. I hear every gear switching. And yes, like everyone says, it is notchy. Sometimes it scares me when I hear these sounds but I suppose it's for a purpose.

I like it. Huge difference when I drive my Legacy 2.5gt.

You make it sound as though, when people like magazine writers note a notchiness in the shifting that they are noting it because it's no big deal. If it were not an negative issue, they would not note it.

Do I sense that there is some resistance on your part to see the car as anything other than perfect? Intolerant of critique, perhaps?

How does one feel the synchro mesh? Is it by a noise or by a vibration or by an impact?

You seem to think I'm taking this personally.

The problem is that when people complain to the manufacturers, they try to fix things. Which is great for big issues (i.e. tail light condensation). But when it's a non-issue like a little roughness in the shifter, there's a potential for the "fix" to go too far. I'd rather a little roughness in the shifter than having a shifter with no feeling at all. This isn't a luxury car where the driver is to be shielded from the mechanics of the car. This is a sportscar where the driver should be a part of the process.

This type of "softening" is what has progressed the STI from the raw 04 to the current one which is heavier, softer, and lacks a lot of the feel of the original.

As far as the severity of "notchiness" I don't see what the big deal is. When the gear oil is cold, yes it's got a little rough spot between gears. But when the transmission is warmed up the shifter moves smoothly from gear to gear. So it's only a temporary condition with minimal impact on feel. I can shift this car with my fingertips. It's a non-issue.

I'm not anti-improvement, I'm anti-softening. I like having Nav and heated seats in my car. I like A/C and power windows and locks. The keyless entry and start system is really cool and fun to use. But what I don't like is stuff that gets between me and the car's controls.

I miss cable throttle. Not because I think it can do the job better than Drive-By-Wire (DBW), but because I miss being able to feel the engine's vibrations through my foot. I could tell when it was running rough, or even when it came up to temperature. That layer of communication is gone from today's cars, and I think the driving experience is lessened by that.

The feel through the shifter starts as an almost rubbery feel as the synchros come in contact and the friction material matches revs. Then there's a slight click as the teeth align followed by the shifter slipping into gear very easily. I can tell by the feel when I've engaged only the first synchro and lost the rev match with the second which causes a grind.

Don't pistol-grip your shifter. Just use your fingers and feel what the transmission is doing. The more in-tune you are with the workings of the car, the better you can utilize it.

@Draco: Points well-taken. I'll just have to drive it myself.

Most of the people here don't know what their talking about, but when the magazines all note notchiness, then I pay a little attention. Not much, but a little.

All the magazines universally praised the S2000 gearbox. That was a gearbox that some people here might describe as notchy (especially when cold). It was very short and very direct. But I loved it.

Do you consider isolation from the mechanics of the car an improvement?

I consider it a problem. It's already more isolated/vague than the S2K trans, it certainly doesn't need to get worse!

That's not what I'm saying. I am taking the word "notchy," when people use it about the FR-S/BRZ gearbox, as a negative critique. A direct linkage that feels direct need not be "notchy."

Why is this so complicated?

If I said that the car slipped out of gear and into neutral under load, you would say that that is a problem. You would not respond by saying, "Do you want a car that stays in gear or do you want a car that is involving to drive?"



:happy0180:

I think it has pretty incredible shift feel for a stock car. The STi has so much slop in it from the factory, its completely depressing.

I didn't even know there was such a thing as a cable operated manual transmission. Do you know of any cars specifically that had this? I know they use push pull cables in automatics sometimes...

I wanna read up on how a cable op transmission works.

Transverse FWD ecoboxes. A friend's Saturn SL once popped a cable from the linkage to the transmission, could only get into first gear for about a month til she finally got the part.

You will get notchiness with a good direct mech link transmission. If you aren't feeling anything in the shifting process you won't feel anything any other time either.

So yes, IMO, it does need to be notchy when cold to feel direct. Every good MT I've ever driven is notchy when cold.. current press isn't just views it as noteworthy (good or bad) because it's not normal, but neither is an excellent shifter. :shrug:

And yes, coming out of gear IS a problem. Notchiness when cold is NOT.

Many modern FWD cars and, I believe, many AWD cars as well.

Most cars now. Hondas used to use rods, then changed to cables I believe. My Eclipse had cables too.

Forgive my newbiness, but I actually kinda thought RWD cars typically had neither? I thought cables and rods were for FWD cars where the transmission was up front and needed a "remote" way to shift it... and RWD cars typically had a shifter more or less IN the transmission itself (mounted below you)?

Depends on the transmission and the driving position. The T-56 in the 4th generation Firebird/Camaro was long enough that the shifter bolted to the transmission casing itself. Subaru transmissions tend to be further forward due to the engine having to be in front of the front axles. So they have a linkage. The BRZ/FR-S has a very rear-ward seating position and a smaller transmission, so there is a linkage as well. But both the Subaru transmissions and the one in the BRZ/FR-S have the shifter connected directly to the transmission itself with only a support on the body.

Ah OK... I think I get it :)

This is an old cutaway pic from a 2004 RX-8. I think you guys have mentioned it having the same or similar transmission? Maybe it illustrates the idea?

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4674/gearshift.jpg

We're going in circles. Let me drive the car and we'll talk again. :happy0180:

BRZ shifter is just fine, very slick and light to operate.
But then my other car is an '05 Corvette which has a rock crusher box and won't even go into 1st gear about 1/3 of the time on first try from stop, lol.
The BRZ shifter is slick and fast, but feels a bit fragile, so I have learned to work it gently.
Only thing I don't like about it is the centering force on it. It is so weak/light that when I try to downshift quickly from 5th to 4th, it doesn't center itself quick enough to find 4th a few times. Actually have to think and help nudge the shifter to center itself as it goes from 5th to 4th.
There is no real notchiness, unless you are trying to downshift into 1st gear, which I never do.

Are there any RWD cars from Japan with a cable linkage? I've owned 2 in the past and both were mechanical.

All this talk about a notchy shifter just makes me want to go drive my car.

Coming from a german saloon that had a sloppy 6MT even with a short shifter, the BRZ is a godsend. That car was made to not feel sporty because it's a luxury car....I wanna feel every mechanical thing I possibly can in a sporty/sports car like the BRZ. Seriously, drive the car and you'll get it. It's not something that makes you think there's a problem with the trans but rather something that lets you remember you bought a sports car and not an econobox/luxury sedan.

Good find.

the MR2 (all generations) and the Lotus Elise use shift cables.

and the Lotus Elise gearbox famously sucs ballz, bro. Can't comment on the MR2. Never drove it.

For transverse-mounted setups, cables are very common. Honda liked to use mechanical linkage for a long time, but even they have now switched to cables, much easier to route, etc. Same reason throttle pedals went from mechanical linkage to cables as well (before going DBW now of course). This includes most FF, MR and RR setups and some AWD setups. There are exceptions to all of this of course.

For RWD setups that don't use a rear transaxle, the shifter is usually either mounted right into the extension housing on the rear of the transmission case (especially on older cars which commonly had a shifter that came out of the console/floor much further forward and sloped back towards the driver), or it is remotely-mounted with a tripod or similar shifter extension. These setups are more common now that the more typical shifter setup is to have the shifter itself more vertical, and you move it along that plane.

The remote extension shifter is what most current non-truck setups seem to be employing, and the TL70/AZ6 in the Zx6 is no exception.

Here's a diagram from the 1993 JZA80 Supra NCF book illustrating the difference in shifters between the older and newer transmissions. It sort of helps illustrate the 2 common RWD shifter setups, with (especially from Toyota/Lexus), the "New" one being much more common now.

http://i.imgur.com/Z8dsP.gif

Jeff

I suspect that most mid/rear-engine cars use cable shifters, especially those with transverse engines. A quick Google check indicates that Porsche uses cable shifters in the Boxster/Cayman, and I believe the 911 also. My old mid-engine Porsche 914 (which IIRC used a 911 shifter) had a cable shifter, and the feel was OK but nothing special.

I was a LITTLE disappointed with the shift feel when I first picked up my BRZ, but it "broke in" and I'm pretty happy with it now. It is definitely not as short as I had hoped, and the feel isn't quite as good as I hoped, but it's very good, certainly much better than your usual FWD/AWD shifter. My Elan is still the benchmark that I compare everything else to, though... I had hoped the BRZ would match it, but alas, it doesn't. I'm still loving the BRZ though!

All water cooled Porsche 911's (996, 997 and 991) use a cable linkage shifter. Some of them such as the GT3's are actually quite nice. The air-cooled 911's all had a rod that went back to the trans and they have a nice solid mechanical feel.

I drove the FRS today.

The gearbox is not "notchy" in any negative way. What you feel is the direct linkage doing its job. I did not experience anything that I would call "notchy."

I would say that the gearbox is like the S2000, but not as tight and not as short a throw. Also, the 3-4-5-6 shifts felt a little off. Hard to find the gates. Maybe just take some getting used to. Owners with seat time can comment on this.

I agree with Groucho above. Some cable linkage systems seem to work just fine. My Fit has a lovely little gearbox for a $15K five-speed econo-box. And, as noted, Porsche uses cable linkages (as well as MacPherson front suspension).

Are you referring to a shifter linkage? This is a RWD car, the shifter goes directly into the transmission. I noticed you drive a Fit so I understand where you are coming from (FWD) but there is no need to link the shifter to the trans via any linkage in a RWD car. The Trans sits behind the engine, not beside the engine like in a FWD:
http://images.gizmag.com/inline/suba...-concept-5.jpg

http://car.watch.impress.co.jp/img/c...Body_001_s.gif

LOL WTF, I guess I stand corrected. I worked for HKS USA, I've owned a Hachi, S13, S14, JZA80 Supra, and a Z and that's the first RWD trans I've seen with that configuration. I guess you learn something new every day...

:bonk:

The JZA80 has the same type of shifter linkage. Never looked under the car? LOL.

Jeff

I believe Porsche and Lotus, to name two, use cable linkage. Most are quite happy wih Porsche. Most think that Lotus gearboxes suc ballz.

:happy0180:

Neither Porsche or Lotus use a similar setup to what an FR car does though, which is why they use cables. They are MR/RR.

Jeff