Track events are getting out of hand 7 run groups at BW!!
 

Maybe this is normal to some of you but its new to me. Just checked the schedule for Speed Ventures Buttonwillow event and it has 7 run groups. 20 Minutes of run time…2 hours of wait, rinse and repeat for a total of 4 runs. Come in at 7:45, leave at 5pm, 1 hour of track time if you are lucky, $219 price tag.


I dont know if I am spoiled but this just sounds ridiculous. I wish the schedule was out before we commit to track days.

Here is the schedule

https://imgur.com/a/CfyV5Xs

SpeedVentures has gone down as far as exclusivity over the past few years.

You used to be able to get on-track with them for 5 sessions, 20 people per session. That's pretty good seat time since they're usually on-point with schedule plus pre-gridding. These days, pre-gridding helps but sessions run a much higher risk of getting shortened and having traffic with larger grid counts



If I don't have to go on a specific day or for a specific event, I prefer to register with smaller organizations on less popular/off-days like Fri or Sun. Get less people and way more seat time.

It looks like the Tesla groups are the problem. 4 run groups according to experience seems to be optimum.

Track costs $X dollars to rent no matter what group is hosting, if you want more seat time, gotta pay more money, it’s always been that way. :iono:

It’s the fact that there are 7 run groups, they can call them whatever, but dividing an 8 hour track day into 7 pieces means each group is going to get only slightly more then an hour of seat time, and that’s if nobody bins it and causes a yellow or red flag.

If the car count is low between groups and the emphasis is on kind of a time trial program I can see where this setup makes sense, given that they host 86cup and others, time trialers don’t want 2+ hours of seat time, they want 5-6 flying laps with clear track. That’s how gridlife and scca run their TT program iirc, the dollar per seat time value looks bad, but the competitive experience makes up for it. There’s other groups that emphasize track time, I think the golden gate lotus club does three groups, 20 minute sessions and by the end of the day the old guys are tired and you basically have a clear track and can get like three hours of seat time.

Small operations like this is where money talks OP.

If you can't run all 5 stints save your juju for the last one as yeah, there is a smaller group. Chuck last Nov, I was the last group. Sun had JUST gone down so still light but no sun in your eyes, 3 cars on track, absolutely magic session....

I’m used to 3 run groups, maybe 4 at most. 7 is madness.

There were unfortunately only 4 groups. Supposedly there was this “bonus” point by but it was 2+ hours after my last session and I did not have the confidence that it was going to worth the extra wait.

They are…but the main issue is SpeedVentures selling 2 whole sessions to Tesla AND running a full track day on top of that. Individual run groups were super duper packed too. I was in the fastest point by group, stock car with street tires am not a particularly fast or good driver and was constantly in traffic.

And no, come in to the pits and ask for space did not help. in 3 corners I was behind a 3-4 car bubble slowing me down and a couple cars behind me who are being slowed down by that same bubble and me.


0 clean laps, just an “also ran” kind of day. Second lowest quality track day I have done so far. First being “tracked” at SoW.

How many Tesla's were there? Man it just seems like EV's are being catered to more and more all the time. Cant they just go have their own track days on their own. Could be time to boycott these events where EV's are given their own run groups at the expense of our ICE's.

That is a Speedventures problem, not an EV problem. Don't blame them.

I’m lucky to now be retired. TMP (Toronto Motorsport Park) runs open track days most Mondays, Fridays and Sundays plus evening sessions. These are not organized (no run groups) with only one marshal at pit out to ensure spacing and no emergency services. Basic passing rules in specific areas apply.
We used to go on Sunday before retirement and it was a zoo. All the rich boys from TO would show up with Daddy's Beemer or Merc to play. Damn, those SUV’s go fast down the straights but do create a logjam at every turn and with zero courtesy for us momentum cars trapped behind.
Anyway, on Mondays only less than 20 cars with mature drivers show, including some open wheel race teams. Unlimited lapping 10am-5 pm for $200 CAD (~US$150). God help our tires!
I suppose we’re spoiled.

Correct. Those organizers need to have EV exclusive days if EV run groups are compromising the ICE run group sessions. I've been on track several times with EV's and not sure why they need their own groups anyway.

Look at other vendors. Speed District and So Cal Driver Club are my current fav's A bit more money but way more track time.

OP forgot to mention that the Tesla run groups (yes, plural), are shorter, because the Teslas dont run as long on track anyways.

TL;DR OP paid for 4x20 minute sessions, and got 4x 20 minute sessions.

Given 5 sessions worth of opportunity, this falls primarily on you, as the driver.

Part of getting clean laps is finding that window where you can get a clean lap.

For example, try gridding up first on your first session. You now control the pace of the outlap. Guaranteed clean lap your first hot lap.

Ultimately, if you want more seat time or less groups, you gotta spend more money to get that time.

If you want less cars on track, then the cost per car goes up. You gotta spend more.


Remember that $219 is a CHEAP track day compared to most of the rest of the country.


Example: My client for the day ran two sessions; we were on track every hour. Spent double the money, got double the track time.

Look I know you have done a zillion more track events than I have but even then my sample size is not that small about 15 track days in early 2000’s and 15 recently, all on BW and Willow and this by far the most crowded. I have also never seen 7 run groups before. Also $200 seems to be about right for a BW track day, I paid as little as $169 with Slip Angle and as high as $220 with SpeedSF. None were like this. Hell even the last SpeedVentures event was 5 run groups i think.

In general temps coming down a bit so I expect the track days to get more crowded compared to 105F but still.

Speaking of Tesla, the last time at TMP we saw they had paved an addition to the paddock and installed 5 or 6 Tesla chargers there. Surely we’ll start seeing them on the road course. They’re likely already enjoying the drag strip.
Didn’t see any generic chargers for other brands.

Buttonwillow just added a bunch of superchargers, and there's another lot of them 10 min down the highway.

It's becoming a thing, although Tesla themselves test at BRP here and there.

This is a lap posted from the same day you were at Buttonwillow. Not be driving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zKXcc3HdjY

Doesn't seem like a ton of traffic to me.

For what it's worth, my costs to run a two-day weekend at Watkins Glen with the local BMW club (Genesse Valley Chapter) are basically $650. For those in the most common run groups of intermediate or advanced, you get 4 or 5 25 minute sessions per day with a mixed bag of fairly open track time and modest congestion.


So... $650 gets you about 3.5 to 4 hours on track (assuming the usual caveats for issues which derail staying on schedule)

Well, this person managed to get at least one clean lap, maybe more maybe not, that information is not available.

I don’t think you expect everyones experience to be the same? I mean he could be slightly faster than everyone in his run group and get out first and have clean laps, I could be slight slower than some people in my run group, get out mid-pack and constantly battle traffic. This actually happens all the time. Maybe you run really fast for too long and forgot about the days being mid pack in a 25+ car run group.

He's mid-pack in Red group. The gridding by time works; the car in front of you is faster, and the car behind you is slower.

Did you tell the staff at gridding an accurate time? If not, the only person you hurt is yourself.

This one thing that allows Speed Ventures to have more dense run groups and more cars is if everyone follows the grid by times.

Three of us met at TMP yesterday (Monday) for 10am - 5pm Open Lapping.
5 cars only showed, of which three were us.
It showered a couple times but never enough to spoil things. The strong wind dried things in moments.
🏁

I didn't see a problem with how SV ran the event. Got all the track time I paid for, as did a few of my friends.

Every single time I've ever been gridded up by lap time by SV I end up near the back, behind a lot of much slower cars and am in traffic trying to pass almost the entire session. This is in both beginner and intermediate groups.

The bolded is a bit contradictory.

If you're stuck behind traffic, slow down, and make yourself a gap, or re-grid and find yourself a gap.

That's exactly my point, I'm supposed to be gridded behind cars faster than me, not slower, that contradiction is exactly my complaint. What's the point of gridding by lap time if I immediately have to re-grid myself as if it was normal traffic.

Do you think you were gridded by lap time correctly?
Do they adjust gridding for each session based on lap time? And, if so, best time of the day or previous session?

Agreed with the above, it sounds like something isn't working properly.

Locally in TT we grid by time in the last session. If you think you're going to run up on someone you leave space on the out lap, if you want a tow from the person ahead of you that you think is a little quicker then stay a bit closer.

It does suck if you miss a session and you're at the back of the grid, but you can usually still get a clean lap or two by leaving a gap greater than your lap delta.

Either way, it is better than open gridding where you inevitably get people in a power car that can't drive worth a shit gridding up front.

Are you going by transponder lap time? If you are faster than them, and behind, well, the times say otherwise.

If you are legitimately faster, strategize, put down a faster lap time, and ratchet ahead of them in grid.

And call out folks not giving you point bys.

Speed Ventures re-grids every session by the fastest time of the day by a given driver.

If everyone is gridding properly, and you happen to be faster than the person in front of you at the time, you have some options. If I were you, I'd just make a small gap between you and the car in front that you're legitimately faster than at the time, lay down a faster lap than him, and "pass him in the pits." It's a great way to get open space and be gridded ahead of him in the next session. Or, if you know you're going to be faster than that person, leave yourself a little space on the out lap and you should have a clean session. Problem solved, and no one even needs to make a pass on track.

This is why I run with Chin normally in Florida.. 3 hours a day for $370 or whatever it is now vs 80-100 minutes for 250-275... and driving quality (at least in red) is far superior to what PCA (100% of the time), PBOC (90%), and NASA (depends on group here.. some HPDE groups are terrible but HPDE 4 seems like it CAN be OK at times). And TNIA with SCCA.. I don't bother.

Years ago I did have the same experience with SV at LS. No transponder so IIRC you self reported new laptimes.. I don't think everyone was completely honest..

Unfortunately, some folks don't get that an honest lap time benefits EVERYONE, including themselves.

They offer a "pay more, be signed up in two run groups" option.
While more expensive, you do get a lot of seat time.

I don't remember how much more I paid when I tried it, but I believe it was less than 2x more.
Looking at their upcoming SoW event, 1 run group is $179 and 2 run groups is $330.
Given that any BW/SoW event includes almost a full day of driving for me, and staying at a hotel...
adding the 2nd run group doesn't make it a lot more expensive in the grand scheme of things.

Last time I tried that, I didn't (need to) use all the time I got on track.
As an added bonus, I could join any session a few minutes late and asked the grid worker to
help me find a gap to join. Also as soon as my tires got too hot I'd comfortably do a couple
of cooldown laps, and go back to the paddock without waiting for the checkered.

(Not that I'm a fan of 7 run groups!)

Yeah the idea seemed smart when I went there but in practice at that event it seemed just as bad as any other event. I just go out usually after 1-2 laps are completed so I don't have to point by 19 GT3RS, 8 GT3, 4 radicals and a couple Z06s when I drive the FRS in adv lol There's always 2-3 other slow cars to play with at least.