FRS faster than BRZ? Tell me why I should still get the BRZ.
 

I really have my heart set on the BRZ over the FRS. My wife has a Subaru and I generally like the brand...and I do slightly prefer the styling and the HIDs. But these reviews that have just been posted have me worried. The reviews from Inside Line, Automobile mag, Motor Trend, and Motor Authority all mention that the FRS is faster. It's mentioned somewhat in the articles, but any thoughts on why this is the case? I really want to get the BRZ over the FRS, but how do I justify that in light of the FRS being a bit cheaper and faster?

Oooops I meant to post this in the Subaru forum.

It's minutely faster due to a bit more oversteery suspension tune. In reality, they are the same. You are getting the BRZ because it comes with a lot more kit. Nav, HIDs, DRLs, etc. are standard.

^ and BRZ's interior is superior.

FR-S is more rewarding to the better driver, though I doubt the difference can be told by just driving casually.

I gonna be honest. When I buy this car it's come down to this

MT = FR-S
AT = BRZ

Why? If I buy MT, which means I gonna use this car for track/autox more than DD, so I don't need all the accessoies. AT, I kinda want extra luxury stuff, which BRZ offers, so I'm going for BRZ.

Other than that, BRZ & FR-S, they're all same to me. Just happen to be FR-S got better time than BRZ. Road condition was different along with weather & temp. Again, just take all the info and review as grain of salt

Ya good point. Although I think we also saw videos recently of the same driver on the same course with the same conditions, and the FRS beat out the BRZ very slightly. So there might be some truth to what these reviewers are saying.

Yes, that might be true... but which car was driven first? FRS or BRZ? Cuz if BRZ was driven first and then timed, afterward he drove FRS and then timed, of course FRS gonna have better time. Cuz he have more time getting used to the car.

I'm not saying FRS is faster and BRZ is slower or vice versa. I'm tell you, drive both of em and see which one you like more. :thumbsup:

I wouldn't call FR-S is faster because same driver drives both car at the same day. He can't drive the same car to match the exact time he did. It can be slightly better or worse.

I wouldn't be surprised if the FR-S was a little faster but if people optimally tune their cars I bet you the number difference will be pretty insignificant.

Both cars are so very good. They each have their own benefits and their drawbacks. At the end of the day the biggest factor in how this car drives will be you. I'm not saying speed doesn't matter but I'm not exactly worried about fractions of a second. :P

What we need here is... The Stig!

How is the FRS faster ? really? I'm wondering..Thus far the reviews have said 1 thing conclusively..

The car with the assists OFF is faster than the car with the assists ON...

Reviews have reported times in the FRS in similar sluggishness to the brz yet reported the FRS had the assists on....Yet no report as to the status of the assits in the brz car...so it's pretty safe to assume the "slow times" in the brz were achieved using the same things that lead to slow times in the FRS...

One might be SLIGHTLY faster due to nature of handling itself in the corner...but overall that's COMPLETELY compensatable(word?lol)

A BRZ that has a slight tendency to understeer can still outperform a FRS..why? because the driver of the FRS is an idiot...simple answer..

The cars are too close/similar in performance for you to choose one based on performance, seriously that's the WORSE deciding factor at this point.

Yeah, I find some of the reviewers comments about it being much faster than the BRZ amusing. As far as we know, the only difference between the two is the suspension setup. The FR-S should not have a power advantage or a better transmission. It would have to be down to discrepancies between the parts or maybe even the fuel or oil or conditions.

But there is a real difference in suspension setup. If you don't plan to modify the suspension, the BRZ will be more stable and the FR-S will be more lively.

Guys, its a 200hp lightweight car, and like the old AE86, 90% of the speed around a racetrack is determined by the driver abilities. Therefore, the slight difference in suspension tuning is mostly irrelevant, as skills for almost all of us are not nearly enough to tap out the highest potential of this car without years of experience and competition. If one makes a turbocharged version or something, that is when things change slightly, but in a car like this, even that may be offset by the inabilities of the driver behind the wheel...

The cars are mechanically identical...

Also, what he said^

what he said^^^

the FRS may be faster in the hands of a pro. But the average joe, not really. I think in perfect conditions/perfect lap the FRS will beat the Brz by < .5seconds

if you want the extra accessory and can afford it go for the BRZ.

Agreed: BRZ = More daily driver comfort
FR-S = More cost effective solution to BRZ with less comforts

I want to mention something I am seeing here.

In the insideline review posted, read this:

"In our testing the FR-S generated 0.88g on the skid pad and turned out a 67.3-mph slalom performance; results that trail those produced by the BRZ we tested. The reason is balance — the FR-S's slightly more tail-happy character makes the numbers less big. "

And if that's true, the BRZ actually would be better in the corners on a track. not worse.

another qoute that shows that it's more about launching ability and driver ability:

"
Sixty miles per hour is reached in 6.6 seconds (6.3 seconds with one foot of rollout like on a drag strip), and the quarter-mile in 14.8 seconds at 93.8 mph. Yes, this result is notably quicker and faster than the BRZ, which did those deeds in 7.3, 7.0, and 15.3 seconds at 92.1, respectively. What's going on?
The data reveals that the BRZ actually accelerated quicker initially, but at 19 mph the Subaru laid over a bit and the Scion powered ahead and never looked back. The explanation is equal parts launch technique and gearchange speed. The Scion's tire-spinning launch allowed it power through the 4000-rpm torque hole we observed in our dyno testing where the Subaru bogged down briefly. Plus, our BRZ tester was plagued with a finicky 1-2 gearchange which ate up precious time en route to 60 mph. "

Just to compile what I found in those reviews so far, comparing the FRS to BRZ:


Motor Authority:
"But turn it all off, and the FR-S reveals its true ability--a level of ability that may even surpass its Subaru twin.

The FR-S isn't identical to the BRZ. It has stiffer rear springs and rear bushings. That makes it a bit more willing to rotate, both on power and off, and yields a balance that feels both natural and easily controlled. It's a conscious decision taken by the Scion crew to make their version just a bit more fun, a bit better-suited to those with as much taste for a well-carved apex and corner-entry tossability as for outright speed. And that, in a nutshell, is the Scion FR-S."

Motor Trend:
"During our testing, we recorded a 25.9-second figure-eight run at a 0.67 g average -- a full second quicker than the Fiat 500 Abarth we recently tested, a half-second quicker than the Honda Civic Si coupe, and even three-tenths of a second quicker than the Subaru BRZ."

Automobile Mag:
"As a result, the cars were essentially neck-and-neck in acceleration runs, with the Scion’s 6.2-second run to 60 mph edging out the Subaru’s 6.4-second 0-60 sprint....

The Scion FR-S, on the other hand, is more playful -- and has a temper. Think of an RX-8 with some MX-5 Miata thrown into the mix. Stiffer rear springs and bushings help make the Scion more neutral at the limit. A tiny amount of initial understeer can be nixed by your right foot with no hesitation. Lift slightly in a corner and the FR-S’s rear tires come unstuck. Get on the throttle too hard, and without delay the rear end begins to rotate. Its actions are quick, so your reactions on the steering wheel need to be fast, too -- but there’s more than enough steering feel coming through the electrically assisted rack that you’ll feel the back end coming around right away.
A beginner driver might have an easier time controlling the Subaru at the limit -- more experienced drivers might prefer the Scion. As the near-identical performance numbers show, neither has a clear performance advantage -- it’s all about the feel. The Scion offers the best balance of any sports car within three times its price. Well, except the Subaru, which trails right behind."


Inside Line:
"Sixty miles per hour is reached in 6.6 seconds (6.3 seconds with one foot of rollout like on a drag strip), and the quarter-mile in 14.8 seconds at 93.8 mph. Yes, this result is notably quicker and faster than the BRZ, which did those deeds in 7.3, 7.0, and 15.3 seconds at 92.1, respectively. What's going on? The data reveals that the BRZ actually accelerated quicker initially, but at 19 mph the Subaru laid over a bit and the Scion powered ahead and never looked back. The explanation is equal parts launch technique and gearchange speed. The Scion's tire-spinning launch allowed it power through the 4000-rpm torque hole we observed in our dyno testing where the Subaru bogged down briefly. Plus, our BRZ tester was plagued with a finicky 1-2 gearchange which ate up precious time en route to 60 mph."


Seems to be some truth underlying all this.

They are literally the exact same car with slightly different suspensions. Any observations that the FR-S is somehow faster are purely anecdotal, unreliable, and probably misguided. Maybe if Toyota used a different air intake or tuned it differently it could be the case, but it's not.

of course there's some truth to it. and the truth is this, the scion has a slight edge when it comes to certain things, but the edge is VERY VERY SLIGHT. so slight that like everyone else said, i would choose the car based on features you want and price rather than these reviews. such a slight edge would easily disappear with upgraded parts, or most importantly, DRIVER UPGRADE.

also, don't ignore the personal preference aspect as well. some people might prefer the more forgiving nature of the BRZ at the limits. others might want the balance of the scion more. test drive them both and decide which you like better, although you may not even be able to perceive the difference on regular roads at normal speeds.

The FR-S is faster enough said....still sucks that I can't get HIDs and push button start...

Hey a lot of those car magazines said that we'd be driving these cars on April 20th, am I missing something?

There's really not much debate and you can't lose either way. You like the Fr-s get the Fr-s, like the BRZ get the BRZ.

+1


I still think the BRZ premium is the better deal!

Yeah, we're all missing our cars! :cry:

There's zero reason to pick one or the other based on reviews. No article tested both at the same time in the same condition.

If anyone is worried about the suspension differences, I'm sure enough FR-S owners will swap out their suspension that BRZ owners can get some like-new parts for cheap. The main differences between the BRZ and FR-S are the easiest parts to change...

From what I recall alot of the initial BRZ reviews didn't post 0-60 times. In addition, both cars would need to be tested back to back in the same conditions to make a comparison. Given that the cars are identical in every meaningful way that matters for straight line performance, you choice comes down to which ever exterior and interior suits you.

Both the FR-S / BR-Z are mid 6 sec 0-60 cars. Period.

HID's give off so much light it actually slows the car down..

There's your solution..
problem solved

:word:

The FR-S and BRZ have the same specs. This car is not about numbers, but the passion/feel of the car for drift and turns. If you want to compare numbers and speed, get a turbo or supercharge.

If you bought two WRX turbo models from the dealer today, and drove them back to back with surgical, robotic precision, you'd probably find that one was .2 tenths of a second faster than the other. That can be blamed on production tolerances, one being built on a Friday, the phase of the moon, the guy driving getting a slightly better launch, or whatever else you want to blame it on. That's just what it is.

The FRS and the BRZ are the same car with a different nose, and slightly different suspension tuning. So neither is going to be faster than the other in a straight line, other than the possibility that one launches better than the other due to the suspension tuning. A rolling start of 5-60 would most likely be identical besides the weight of the driver.

I can say from experience that, on any given day, the BRZ can beat the FRS around the track, or the FRS can beat the BRZ around the track, or they have a dead tie. Depending on drivers, the BRZ could beat the FRS around the track by an easy 6 seconds. I know this because my first experience with Tsukuba Circuit, I beat an experienced motor journalist around the track with a 1.18 time vs. his 1.24 time *in the same mx5*.

If anybody here really is going to buy the FRS because they think it's "faster" than the BRZ, then they'll end up disappointed. If they buy it because they like Toyota dealers better, or they like the nose better, or they like the price better, or the options available better, they won't be disappointed at all.

Regards,

Paul Hansen
www.avoturboworld.com
www.facebook.com/BRZSportsCarClub

unless toyota is hiding something from the public, these cars are 99% identical.

This suggests tuning: install HIDs for tail lights ;)

Maybe add a throttle position switch so at WOT you get a HID boost..along with AIDS

Ass warmers
Leather
Auto Climate Control
World Rally Blue
Maybe you like STi more than TRD

Yes, but these jouranlist all talk to each other on the same venue and discuss things to each other... I would imagine they would have different thoughts if they were prohibited from talking amongst themselves.... :P

Really Mods?

Erasing my Posts already?

Like I said If at this point in the cycle you believe the FRs is faster than a BRZ don't buy a BRz you do not have the intellectual capacity to maintain a car of this limited production status and do not posses the critical thinking abilities to secure the vehicle a long and prosperous life...

and you might be stupid...

Perhaps the mods should delete your most recent post too. How is it a mark of a lack of intellectual capacity or stupidness to buy the FRS over the BRZ IF (emphasis on IF) it's true that the FRS is faster than the BRZ? The cars are roughly identical, but if the FRS is faster AND cheaper, wouldn't it seem sensible (or at least certainly not stupid) to go FRS?

In any event, blindly buying the BRZ for more money IF all reviews (and your test-drive) tells you that the FRS is better/faster, would seem to be a sign of a lack of intellectual capacity, if anything would. If you are a critical thinker, shouldn't you compare price and performance when deciding to purchase?

------

Thanks for all the helpful posts above, btw. I certainly feel that it would be unwise to read too much into these reviews. (That being said, they probably shouldn't be ignored completely either.)

OP, like many on this forum people seem to forget that BRZ is slghtly heavyer than the FRS due to the standard equipments.

with such low margen as shown in the magazine tests of .2 seconds. the difference can all be in the margin of error, or the slight weight increase in the BRZ is taking its slight effect on the results.

if you were to remove some of the extra equipments, I bet the time would be the same between the two cares

I am not trying to pick on you because you are technically right, that the BRZ is slightly heavier. However while we are on that subject, for a long time now there seems to be this general belief that the FR-S is significantly lighter than the BRZ. I know that is not what you are stating, but it seems a lot of people are justifying the weight difference in favor the of the FR-S.

Personally this always mystified me considering they are going to be built identically for the USDM market, and the only real difference is the fact the BRZ has a navigation head unit and maybe the weight of a couple extra ballasts for the HID system. How people thought this would be a big difference is beyond me.

To those who don't know, the curb weights for both production versions of the vehicles have been posted. What's the difference? Just how much more does the BRZ weigh compared to the FR-S? 4 pounds. The BRZ weighs 4 pounds more than the FR-S. When the difference between the two cars is less than packing your lunch, it's time to stop professing what a great performance benefit the weight savings is giving you.

that's like saying a 240sx XE is faster than an LE

if there is any discrepancy in the cars it (as was pointed out by Jason Kavanagh of insideline) comes down to driver, car's history, and conditions. there is an ever so slight difference in the weight of the vehicles and it uses slightly different dampers/springs/bushings whatever....

so back to where we were, if you honestly think 2 cars with identical chassis (front fascia aside) identical powertrains, the same drive ratio, tire size, ecu calibration, intake and exhaust track, are going to perform so vastly different that one is the clear cut "faster car" and you are never going to, change tires, or shocks or springs or bushings or put items in the trunk or carry fat chicks or eat before driving, or drive with clothes on.....


the differences are within margin of error, (as stated but i know you can't read)

it has been known for months that the FR-s intentionally chose rates and damping for the rear to make the car more prone to oversteer. so yeah that'll feel faster, and on some courses especially with limited seat time the car that rotates more readily will be faster...

so since you missed it the critical thinking part is where you draw real conclusions from statements and facts rather than just believing what some kid that probably can't drive is whining about on the interwebs...

Not to mention if you are buying this car to go fast you are probably buying the wrong car (whichever you buy)