Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Software Tuning (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=88)
-   -   Visconti Tuning - Latest BRZ Flash Info (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13307)

ruskymx 08-03-2012 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR600RR (Post 357027)
^ all easily done with a laptop?
Yes, he just had a laptop and the cable and within a few minutes it was flashed. Now all the time and effort that went into making the flash is a different story that John could answer, but the actual flashing process seemed extremely simple.

He flashed my car yesterday to test fuel economy for him and also watched him switch the Whiteout FRS with the header back and forth from Stock to Stage 1 for dyno pulls.

Ruskymx

Gen 08-03-2012 11:44 AM
So forgive me ignorance, but I have to ask, if a simple tune can increase engine power a fairly significant amount while increasing MPG, why would Subaru and Toyota have left it as is? There must be some reason. I don't imagine there's a significant emissions difference between stock and flashed. How much does this tune lean things out?

Visconti 08-03-2012 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen (Post 357106)
So forgive me ignorance, but I have to ask, if a simple tune can increase engine power a fairly significant amount while increasing MPG, why would Subaru and Toyota have left it as is? There must be some reason. I don't imagine there's a significant emissions difference between stock and flashed. How much does this tune lean things out?
I think a lot of it has to do with emissions...

Tune doesn't lean the car out except a little but during WOT - but nothing crazy.

-John

jpit 08-03-2012 11:51 AM
If $950 is the price for this canned tune it is outlandish. Over the past few years I have had a 370Z and a Mini Cooper tuned with software and several dyno runs for less than $600 each.

Visconti 08-03-2012 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpit (Post 357117)
If $950 is the price for this canned tune it is outlandish. Over the past few years I have had a 370Z and a Mini Cooper tuned with software and several dyno runs for less than $600 each.
The tune wont be for everyone - but that is the price.

EcuTek License - $250
EcuTek Cable - $350
Tune - $350

-John

Memphis 08-03-2012 11:55 AM
Ok I am sorry but am I the only one that thinks $900 for a tune is a little ridiculous? I have owned and tuned many a car for the cobalt scene and tunes for them are half that. Hell the N/A cars run between $180 to $300 for one.

I know that this is a new car and all but when tuning first came out for the cobalts I do not recall them being that high. Tunes for higher end cars usually run that high.

This is supposed to be a poor man lotus and that is by far a rich man tune.

I am well aware this is a completely different engine and one that has direct injection and that you are first on the block with tuning.

I truly am not trying to be a **** and am merely curious. An explanation of pricing would be very helpful to me.

Could we as members here get on a group buy and possibly bring the price down for every x amount of people that sign on for it?

And I was wondering Visconti if you have had a chance to work with an auto yet? Or is that further down the line?

Memphis 08-03-2012 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visconti (Post 357125)
The tune wont be for everyone - but that is the price.

EcuTek License - $250
EcuTek Cable - $350
Tune - $350

-John
What is this license? Why would we as customers need it?

mike2100 08-03-2012 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visconti (Post 357115)
I think a lot of it has to do with emissions...

Tune doesn't lean the car out except a little but during WOT - but nothing crazy.

-John
In general terms (i.e. without disclosing proprietary info) can you talk about what tuning you did for other-than-WOT conditions? I mean I know basic tuning is air:fuel ratio and timing adjustments. Anything else?

Additionally, I agree with the theory that stock tuning doesn't maximize power for emissions reasons. I think there are 2 specific reasons: 1) minimize emissions and 2) protect the catalytic converters from accelerated deterioration. I wonder if there's any more to that story...

mike2100 08-03-2012 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis (Post 357130)
What is this license? Why would we as customers need it?
License to use the software. Technically you are using the software for you car. It's like the license to use Windows operating system.

BTW, capitalism is a wonderful thing. ECUtek will charge what they think people will pay for 1) the software license and 2) the hardware dongle. Tuners will charge what they think people will pay for a tune and all the knowledge required to do it.

If it doesn't sell well (demand down), the price goes down.
If more competitors enter the market (supply up), the price goes down.

How many people own an FT86? How many people own a WRX/STI? How many own Civics?

The time required to build the knowledge base required to tune a specific vehicle is fairly constant from vehicle to vehicle. And the money a tuner's time is worth is fairly constant. So if the number of vehicles/customers goes down then the price per vehicle must go up in order to recoup the time investment.

Visconti 08-03-2012 12:07 PM
The EcuTek license is how EcuTek gets paid.

The more cars I tune, the more licenses I use.

In other markets that don't have great tools like EcuTek you buy all the software and hardware up front and can tune as many cars as you want. - this is the way with bosch and siemen computers

The investment ends up being more than $25k - your also working with a company that has absolutely no incentive to continue development on their work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis (Post 357126)
Ok I am sorry but am I the only one that thinks $900 for a tune is a little ridiculous? I have owned and tuned many a car for the cobalt scene and tunes for them are half that. Hell the N/A cars run between $180 to $300 for one.

I know that this is a new car and all but when tuning first came out for the cobalts I do not recall them being that high. Tunes for higher end cars usually run that high.

This is supposed to be a poor man lotus and that is by far a rich man tune.

I am well aware this is a completely different engine and one that has direct injection and that you are first on the block with tuning.

I truly am not trying to be a **** and am merely curious. An explanation of pricing would be very helpful to me.

Could we as members here get on a group buy and possibly bring the price down for every x amount of people that sign on for it?

And I was wondering Visconti if you have had a chance to work with an auto yet? Or is that further down the line?
Yes - I have worked with a auto - it's neat but I prefer the manual

As for the price of the tune I'm not really sure what you want me to explain.

There is a cost for the hardware to flash the car, then a license that goes to EcuTek. That adds up to $600.

My time and hard work on the tune is worth something....

On sub-30k cars I normally do $350 for tunes unless I'm on the dyno etc

The more expensive cars are $500 a map

Currently selling EcuTek Juke packages for $975 - they are flying off the self - they also have the same price break down.

-John

Stu baru 08-03-2012 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen (Post 357106)
So forgive me ignorance, but I have to ask, if a simple tune can increase engine power a fairly significant amount while increasing MPG, why would Subaru and Toyota have left it as is? There must be some reason. I don't imagine there's a significant emissions difference between stock and flashed. How much does this tune lean things out?
They're the ones offering the 5 year/60,000 mile warranty, so to them it's about RELIABLE excellent performance and fuel economy. They always leave some cards on the table, hence the tuner and aftermarket parts scene.

JoeBoxer 08-03-2012 12:21 PM
$950 is a little steep but the gains are more significant than a catback/intake combo most likely. By the time you buy an intake($350), header($500), catback(up to $1000), and tune($950) you might as well buy a turbo kit it almost seems.

fenton 08-03-2012 12:26 PM
I think 799 would be nice price point.

SkullWorks 08-03-2012 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBoxer (Post 357176)
$950 is a little steep but the gains are more significant than a catback/intake combo most likely. By the time you buy an intake($350), header($500), catback(up to $1000), and tune($950) you might as well buy a turbo kit it almost seems.

...for which you will need a tune.

Memphis 08-03-2012 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visconti (Post 357143)
The EcuTek license is how EcuTek gets paid.

The more cars I tune, the more licenses I use.

In other markets that don't have great tools like EcuTek you buy all the software and hardware up front and can tune as many cars as you want. - this is the way with bosch and siemen computers

The investment ends up being more than $25k - your also working with a company that has absolutely no incentive to continue development on their work.



Yes - I have worked with a auto - it's neat but I prefer the manual

As for the price of the tune I'm not really sure what you want me to explain.

There is a cost for the hardware to flash the car, then a license that goes to EcuTek. That adds up to $600.

My time and hard work on the tune is worth something....

On sub-30k cars I normally do $350 for tunes unless I'm on the dyno etc

The more expensive cars are $500 a map

Currently selling EcuTek Juke packages for $975 - they are flying off the self - they also have the same price break down.

-John
Im sure you prefer the manual lol. I would too. I was more or less asking if you have or are going to start working on trans tunes or features like launch for the auto?

Im sure its a ways down the road as everyone right now is more concerned about the engine.

Thank you for the explanation although I am not to sure whether I agree with it or not. There are other tuning companies out there that have their own custom made software that do not charge license fees to their customers but only a one time fee to their vendor for their product. An example would be Trifecta Performance.

I am glad they are flying off the shelf for you though :) I am truly interested and when the time comes I will be getting one as well.

GirlyScions 08-03-2012 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gen (Post 357106)
So forgive me ignorance, but I have to ask, if a simple tune can increase engine power a fairly significant amount while increasing MPG, why would Subaru and Toyota have left it as is? There must be some reason. I don't imagine there's a significant emissions difference between stock and flashed. How much does this tune lean things out?
Car manufacturers have to leave some wiggle room in ignition timing just to be safe and reliable. Not saying your car wont be reliable with a tune. Manufacture leave room for error such as clogged air filters, dirty plugs, minor faults ect.

fenton 08-03-2012 12:55 PM
I want to know more about the auto blip!

Is it Syncro Rev match 370z type stuff because that is what I am imagining :)

jeebus 08-03-2012 12:58 PM
ecuTek is overcharging for the license. You guys are overcharging for the tune. The cable is vastly overpriced.

Just sayin.

Should be more like $150 -license, $250 -tune, $150 -cable.

There's plenty of profit margin in there.

SkullWorks 08-03-2012 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeebus (Post 357259)
ecuTek is overcharging for the license. You guys are overcharging for the tune. The cable is vastly overpriced.

Just sayin.

Should be more like $150 -license, $250 -tune, $150 -cable.

There's plenty of profit margin in there.


If you don't like the tuning solution, design your own hardware, write your own programming, learn all the ins and outs of complex OEM engine management (much more complex than your average standalone) gain access to a dyno and tune it your self,


then come back and tell us how much YOU want for this service.

John is offering a gain of real WHP in the first 6 months of car availability, with the OEM hardware, if you don't recognize that as an accomplishment worth the money asked (which is actually quite reasonable) then feel free not to buy it (or post anymore about it)

Gen 08-03-2012 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeebus (Post 357259)
ecuTek is overcharging for the license. You guys are overcharging for the tune. The cable is vastly overpriced.

Just sayin.

Should be more like $150 -license, $250 -tune, $150 -cable.

There's plenty of profit margin in there.
You have to consider break even costs as well. I doubt he receives a significant portion of the license and cable cost, so if he spent 500 hours learning the software and developing a tune and he's only projecting to sell 30 tunes in the next six months, he has to make it worth his while.

Almost all companies charge more initially to take advantage of (for lack of a better phrase) the early adopters. The price falls as demand stalls over the long run.

Is it more than I'd be willing to pay for a NA tune? Yes, because I plan to be going FI and I wouldn't want to void my warranty for a dozen or so extra horsepower, but I think the total price is fairly reasonable for being first to market.

tonystewart 08-03-2012 01:23 PM
Price is fine for me, how do I go about getting a flash for my daughters automatic FRS in South Florida?

serialk11r 08-03-2012 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2100 (Post 357133)
In general terms (i.e. without disclosing proprietary info) can you talk about what tuning you did for other-than-WOT conditions? I mean I know basic tuning is air:fuel ratio and timing adjustments. Anything else?

Additionally, I agree with the theory that stock tuning doesn't maximize power for emissions reasons. I think there are 2 specific reasons: 1) minimize emissions and 2) protect the catalytic converters from accelerated deterioration. I wonder if there's any more to that story...
I think that's the whole story pretty much. Running richer at WOT increases emissions, but the OEM would rather do that transiently than have the cats die early.

jpit 08-03-2012 02:16 PM
Explain to me how Uprev (which also has a great software reputation) is able to do all the research and put a Nissan on a dyno for a custom tune for $600? Frankly a canned tune can be a hit or miss proposition.

Visconti 08-03-2012 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpit (Post 357462)
Explain to me how Uprev (which also has a great software reputation) is able to do all the research and put a Nissan on a dyno for a custom tune for $600? Frankly a canned tune can be a hit or miss proposition.
I wish EcuTek had a price point like Uprev, I mention this to them all the time. They have cables for $150, license is $300.

When you wholesale the cable is like $75-100, and license cost is $150.. This allows a tuner like me to make more money.

That being said having used both products I can tell you that EcuTek's product is on a entirely different level than the UpRev.

The custom RaceRom code that EcuTek is writing is going to blow your mind.

EcuTek won't be the solution for everyone, but I think it will be for most.

John

Spaceywilly 08-03-2012 02:31 PM
If you want it cheaper just wait. The cable for my WRX was $100 and the software and tune was free. This was 8 years after it came out. You have to pay more to be an early adopter. This should be common sense.

Visconti 08-03-2012 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceywilly (Post 357503)
If you want it cheaper just wait. The cable for my WRX was $100 and the software and tune was free. This was 8 years after it came out. You have to pay more to be an early adopter. This should be common sense.
Yup, th3 newer version of that cable costs $200 now.. There are $30 eBay options now too.

What most people don't know is that free software contains stolen stuff from commercial companys !

At the time of the release the software was free to use but there was only one cable to use... Theirs - not so free

That free software also supports BMW and Mini Cooper tuning now - under a different name and costs $$$

Most people or companys don't do things for free in this world.

That being said I'm all for other flashing options.

But I'm pretty sure it won't be free

John

EvoXDD 08-03-2012 02:50 PM
I really wish this stuff would go open source and use the tactrix cable and allow home tuners like myself to tune our own cars.

Any chance in your opinion that there will be an open source scene like on the evos and STI's?

Spaceywilly 08-03-2012 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoXDD (Post 357545)
I really wish this stuff would go open source and use the tactrix cable and allow home tuners like myself to tune our own cars.

Any chance in your opinion that there will be an open source scene like on the evos and STI's?
It takes a lot longer for that stuff to come out because nobody likes working for free. Eventually there might be but I'm not holding my breath. As John said above the guys who did the open source stuff for the STI and EVO are not doing it for free anymore. The best bet for now will be to wait for the end user tuning solution from ecutek, but I won't be holding my breath for that either.

Visconti 08-03-2012 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoXDD (Post 357545)
I really wish this stuff would go open source and use the tactrix cable and allow home tuners like myself to tune our own cars.

Any chance in your opinion that there will be an open source scene like on the evos and STI's?
It's a completely different ecu.

The guys doing the free stuff are defining the roms, not figuring out how to flash them.

I don't see Ecuflash supporting this for a long time

fenton 08-03-2012 02:56 PM
Can you tell us about the autoblip feature Visconti?

Visconti 08-03-2012 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceywilly (Post 357549)
It takes a lot longer for that stuff to come out because nobody likes working for free. Eventually there might be but I'm not holding my breath. As John said above the guys who did the open source stuff for the STI and EVO are not doing it for free anymore. The best bet for now will be to wait for the end user tuning solution from ecutek, but I won't be holding my breath for that either.
EcuTek has had talks about end user tuning, it's in the pipe line.

Email sales@ecutek.com and let them know you want it. They will most likely respond with something boring but if you guys continue to ask i think it'll happen faster

Dimman 08-03-2012 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visconti (Post 357125)
The tune wont be for everyone - but that is the price.

EcuTek License - $250
EcuTek Cable - $350
Tune - $350

-John
If we get this from you, and then upgrade parts later and need a re-tune, would that only be the $350 tuning fee, since we already have the license and cable?

Visconti 08-03-2012 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimman (Post 357600)
If we get this from you, and then upgrade parts later and need a re-tune, would that only be the $350 tuning fee, since we already have the license and cable?
Worse case yes, but I don't see myself charging for NA retunes.

The turbo cars are a different story - but I need more seat time to see

John

ATL BRZ 08-03-2012 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis (Post 357126)
Ok I am sorry but am I the only one that thinks $900 for a tune is a little ridiculous?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeebus (Post 357259)
ecuTek is overcharging for the license. You guys are overcharging for the tune. The cable is vastly overpriced.

Just sayin.

Should be more like $150 -license, $250 -tune, $150 -cable.

There's plenty of profit margin in there.
Wow. I'm really surprised by this. I added 50hp and 100ft/lbs to my VW Tiguan 2.0T with a $600 stage 1 ECU tune from APR. They did all their own R&D and tuning in house and it's a dyno proven, warranty safe, reliable tune for the VW/Audi crowd, and they are still profiting from that price point.

Dollar for HP gained with an ECU tune is obviously much different for a turbo engine, but damn I can't believe the price of 18hp naturally aspirated from EcuTek. For what you get, $900 is crazy expensive, even when you break it down.

Coultergeist 08-03-2012 03:40 PM
Also curious about the auto-blip. Haven't used it on street cars, but if it's anything like some of the sequential track cars I've driven, there's not much more to explain:

When you downshift, you don't need to heel toe. Just hit the brake, stab the clutch, shift (the car blips itself), and you let the clutch out.

Correct?

dabocx 08-03-2012 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL BRZ (Post 357641)
Wow. I'm really surprised by this. I added 50hp and 100ft/lbs to my VW Tiguan 2.0T with a $600 stage 1 ECU tune from APR. They did all their own R&D and tuning in house and it's a dyno proven, warranty safe, reliable tune for the VW/Audi crowd, and they are still profiting from that price point.

Dollar for HP gained with an ECU tune is obviously much different for a turbo engine, but damn I can't believe the price of 18hp naturally aspirated from EcuTek. For what you get, $900 is crazy expensive, even when you break it down.
Again im not the most informed on VWs, but doesnt VW/Audi share their 2.0T across a million cars? Last time i went to AFRs page it seems like every car they make at least had a option for it.

fenton 08-03-2012 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabocx (Post 357662)
Again im not the most informed on VWs, but doesnt VW/Audi share their 2.0T across a million cars? Last time i went to AFRs page it seems like every car they make at least had a option for it.
Yes and they havent changed it drastically in a while.

Probably using the same ECU across many as well, crack one you are well on your way to cracking them all.

Flat Black VW 08-03-2012 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabocx (Post 357662)
Again im not the most informed on VWs, but doesnt VW/Audi share their 2.0T across a million cars? Last time i went to AFRs page it seems like every car they make at least had a option for it.
coming from VW/Audi, Yes, yes they do. That engine was introduced years ago and is available in almost all of the VWs and a lot of Audis. Not gonna compile a list but WAY more cars than our engine is in.

wootwoot 08-03-2012 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visconti (Post 357608)
Worse case yes, but I don't see myself charging for NA retunes.

The turbo cars are a different story - but I need more seat time to see

John
Thank you for your hard work!

enjoyminutemaid 08-03-2012 04:30 PM
Is Ecutek willing to sell licenses and tunes w/out the cable? If not, then ignore below.

In the WRX community, people borrow each other's tactrix cables all of the time. Same with VW's and VAGCOM. I imagine that with this tune, many people will do the same. This equates to a $600 cost, not $950, to flash a car. For the record, it's only fair to compensate your generous friend with the cable at least a few dollars for letting you use it.


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